*Serara Forum (formerly Monjoronson forum)*

THe LUCIFER REBELLION => The LUCIFER REBELLION and ITS CONSEQUENCES => Topic started by: mauricio on August 15, 2016, 12:19:47 PM

Title: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: mauricio on August 15, 2016, 12:19:47 PM
Caligastia has succeeded in distorting communism?, it would be on our planet viable communism recovery in altruistic levels for planetary lever?
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Ron Besser on August 15, 2016, 07:08:17 PM
Mauricio, do you know who you remind me of?  Mandrake the Magician, although Mandrake wore a tux, but you wear the aura of bare chested observation before the assembled readers here.  Do you want to tickle the idea of a perfect communism?  And to suggest that such a political observation of Karl Marx's philosophical communism never had a chance due to Caligastia's casting of a stone to it before it had a chance to be perfect?

May I ask what you are asking about as I am curious what triggered that suggestion from you?  The world is full of idealists who believe sharing equally in the resources of the world is the better way of doing things.  At root that is communism.  Notice I used a small "c" in communism because the small "c" refers to the general proposition that all should share equally in the worlds resources.  The capital "C" in Communism refers to the value of communism to certain States around the world who tried it.  Do you think any State around the world could institute a perfect communism?  How could they do that?  And what did Caligastia do to communism that ruined it?  I'd like to hear your view, so please help yourself to tell us.

I also wonder if some of you reading this might tell us how the Magisterial Mission might borrow something from Communism?  If so, how does that apply and what do you think the Missions might institute as a perfect communism?

Ron

Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: mauricio on August 15, 2016, 08:14:49 PM
I fall itself, and once was thinking with the spirit of lies and illusion, because through my emotions I was just wanting to stop learning in urantia to transfer me to another planet from cosmic brotherhood, ie I was rejecting self learning process, which is bad, and but once I see about having to deal with the cosmic loneliness without patience and I entered the error by rapid perfection generating imperfection easiest way being not long to live life, make a comparison with other civilizations that are in the final stages of light and life as Iarga, it was like I fell off a cliff with his hands tied and I admtir that the comparison can not take the place of evolution proposed by different environments for the same purpose.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: overmind on August 15, 2016, 08:41:54 PM
I think the general idea of communism is fine if people themselves share resources and labor instead of the state forcing it on people. That would require self-governing, though, and people don't have the morals currently to allow such a system to function properly. As long as people are selfish, the economic system must make use of that selfishness to improve overall life. And as long as people are lazy, there must be economic incentives for work so that people will change their habits. Of course, this is ultimately a very complex topic that deals with the laws of the state, the structure of the economy, the functioning of the monetary system, and the social mores of society. I think slowly adjusting the capitalist/socialist markets in the right way (whatever that is) is much safer than introducing a wildly different methodology of managing human consumption and labor, and that will differ country by country.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Daniel Alderfer on August 15, 2016, 09:22:25 PM
Dear Virile and obviously very healthy Mauricio,

Thank you for broaching this subject that is really dear to my heart also, as the idea of a communistic society is so very attractive and desireable seeming.

But here I have to stop in my discussion to clarify a few points because of semantic challenges. What I think you are saying in the statement at 8:14 pm is this:

I was a little side tracked for a while with lies and delusion. Because of my dispair about the mess on Urantia I just wanted to stop and leave this planet, which is a bad attitude on my part, and go to  a planet that has a normal positive society like Iarga. I could see if I rejected the slow way that takes so much patience, and tried to rush things, that won't work eather, so I was almost at the point to end my life over a cliff, but I had to admit that the way of evolution where the progression is by subjecting a world or an invironment to the way of struggle and free choice was the only way that really works.

Dear mauricio, see if this is about what you were saying, please, Daniel
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: mauricio on August 15, 2016, 09:29:59 PM
I'm not sure but I believe Caligastia used its best efforts to ruin communism, as Overmind cited need is a pasciente work, and a material stimulus at the beginning is the guarantee for a well sociedido process, but the advertising material consumption is a waste where you work only in self gratification does not last for eternity, we should start with the idea of eradicating inequality why she feeds inevja and greed for the least favored in terms of social conditions, then I remember that the lessons Jesus applied are important in love and service, specifically in selfless service, I see many bad caligastias in urantia to live a sussegada life, I think that was why I thought possibly the influence of Caligastia in communism
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Ron Besser on August 15, 2016, 10:32:18 PM
I look at Mauricio's question somewhat differently than some of you are approaching this.  It is not so much that it is communism that folds his interest as is it is the despondency Mauricio feels so badly about in his own mind and he is asking in a very simple way, is a commune system (not necessarily Marx/Lenin communism) better for civilization to sustain itself better?

This is why I responded to Mauricio, for he is asking a profound question inside the human heart.  Communism in the 19th and 20th century on Urantia was murderous and brutal, and that is not what Mauricio is pointing at.   He is asking did evil change the sharing for all in existing civilizations so sharing in a State sense never had a chance to express itself.  You can call it communism, but you can call it something else, something like a benign culture based on pure socialism and let it go at that.  Mauricio is hampered by translation of his thought to English, but I hear his heart calling to find something better than what he has to live with.  Can anyone discuss this means to social equality to help Mauricio understand what could be possible if we could engineer social equality without criminal theft of its ideals?

Ron


PS - As I pointed out to Mauricio in a private message, Caligastia had nothing to do with social organization of humans on Urantia until he found it a way to disgrace Jesus and kill Urantians.  He hated Urantia humans and pleaded with Michael to reassign him elsewhere as complaints were that Urantians are stupid and have little growth potential.  He could have cared less of the name of how they organized themselves then or in the future.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: overmind on August 15, 2016, 11:21:34 PM
Most college students wonder if communism could have worked when they study economics, and the truth is we've never witnessed true communism in any country. Theoretically, it is unworkable because people want more compensation or resources for more difficult tasks, and there is very little empirical evidence that says it can work as a model for a country. On a smaller scale, however, we are actually dealing with the tragedy of the commons, and you cannot exactly extrapolate the solutions to that problem because you are dealing with only one or two community resources in a minor system. Yet that is where people will need to start, because that is how you will come to understand the culture of those who found solutions in their own neighborhood, village, or farm. It is also where you deal with the most basic example of free riding. While you can learn to understand the spirit of sharing responsibility within a community when you are only looking at one local resource that is being managed, you cannot usually compare that to a system of sharing all resources.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Ron Besser on August 16, 2016, 12:08:20 AM
Overmind,
How do you think the Magisterial Mission may use elements of Christianity and communism to destabilize the system of overpopulation we have in place now?

Is Communism primarily a social financial system or does it report to duty as something we already have working in our civilization today here and in Europe and most of the rest of the world?

The best example I know of Communism is Stalinism as I grew up hearing about it all the time on American news outlets.  I would be hard put to see anything good in that version of communism.  What is the social value of communism?  We all know the failure of communism as a financial means to live, at least with Stalinism, and North Korea and in the recent past, Indonesia and the PRC.

The Most Highs observed the Urantian experience with Communistic States.  I asked them if they were willing to comment on that experience.  Here it is:

Sentenact - "I am the Chief Most High.  I come at the request of Ron, to answer a difficult question from your perspective, but an easy one from our perspective.  First, Caligastia hated Urantians He could not get far enough away from Urantia aborigines. He also failed to understand that most Urantians were already communists when he walked the earth in the early twentieth century.  That was before the great Russian revolution of of 1918-19.  We see things differently today as we had hoped that throwing off the aristocracy the Russians would enter a new era of more democratic means.  But instead Lenin came upon the scene and threw that dream out the window with our hopes for a better Urantia.  By the time of 1991 and the end of the Russian USSR, our wishes were to bury a system that was recidivistic.  We evaluate the system of communism the chinese had under Mayo as worse than Russian but not as individually dangerous as the Russian system.  The North Korean system is not true Communism as it is more altruistic in its approach but deadly if disagreed with.

"Ron asks me if there is any use to communism for a State or a nation?  The answer is yes, and Mauricio was trying to explain why he asked the question and Ron discovered it in his heart.  Communism is without pity when it comes to helping an individualist, but it is happily done in seeing that all have a home, shelter, and food on the table regardless of their social standing.  The peasants of the Russian plain were pitilessly discarded by the Tsars, but held high by the Reds, and in this we regard the system saved millions of lives, but plundered millions more who disagreed with it.  In our estimation, Donald Trump could exist without any form of government to hold him because he is wealthy enough to transfer himself out of trouble all the time.  But most people including this Transmitter have no choice but to bend to the will of a minority in western civilization that is no better than the Communist masters of t he twentieth century as they exploit mercilessly what they want and let those who can not work it suffer unto death."

Michael of Nebadon - "I saw this thread erupt in my mind too when Mauricio stated his thread and question.  Ron caught that he was not particularly sure that Caligastia had anything to do with the concept of communism or had anything to do with its demise, but Caligastia did not like Urantians ever.  He found them weasels and demeaning of anything good for the common cause through unusual sex acts and bigamy and stealing loaves of bread out of grainery until no one had food for the winter.  These were officials who were in charge of it and the classic example of fox guarding the chicken house.  Lenin pursued relentlessly the others who helped led the revolution like Trotsky and a few others.  The choice to be a Communist has never been strong in America, and it has never been true in Asia until the Chinese adopted it so they could oust the federalists which they finally did to the Island of Quemoy.  Communism fails because there is no incentive for wealth but there is incentive for most poor people to adopt it and be quiet about individualism to be kept fed and warm.  I think Mauricio was looking for a better way to state the premise until Ron happened along to explain that Caligastia had nothing to do with communism on earth, but that man found it and tried it and found it utterly unworkable for the most part.  Russian Communism is the worst ever followed acutely by the North Korea example, but few other examples lived long enough to produce any real history.  Good day/"

END
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: LarryG on August 16, 2016, 12:12:01 AM
 In briefly looking at the purists forms of differing types of governing and people and societies they all share in similar qualities until such time as they are eventually perverted by man himself.  Although I am not a history buff in any sense of the word, all types of ideological theories, in their pure forms, have advantages and disadvantages, both good "workable" points and bad. We do not know precisely what exact plans will be put forth through the Missions since Urantia is so severely damaged through the many defaults that have occurred in our history.  Add to that the decimation of our planet from the extreme earth changes, there is likely to be many ways that man will and must adapt  as small communities, villages, and towns and will have to quickly take and adapt from the best of several of these ideologies just to survive.  The days of barter and trade may as well have a resurgence.
Having lived through the very strong and devastating hurricane in Hawaii in 1992, which I am thankful to have done for I learned so much about living under extreme stress without the usual comforts.  I also witnessed  and was part of how people can and do pull together when they are forced to and how there is a strong sense of community and just pulling together when survival is the issue.
When, for a short time, I was forced to pick wild mushrooms in the forests of Oregon at 1.50 a pound, come rain or shine, had to wash my clothes in a river and cook all meals on an open fire, I learned so much.  In many ways it was the worst 6 months of my life and in other ways it was the richest and most learning time of my life which I do not regret for a minute.
We will, I believe, in our journey to Light and Life,  just as we have been told about orders of beings in the Universe that are truly Self Governing, as mankind take from the best as we are lead and guided through our Universal Government, The Father's Government, and finally see mankind become what he has always intended to be and reach the heights that are created through love.   I have always been one of the idealists and have inwardly known that if man has no ideals, he could never reach those sublime heights.....LarryG  
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: esther on August 16, 2016, 12:44:49 AM
I'll refer Mauricio and anyone interested in what to do to change this World; to TMArchives under New Era Communications   NEC by Daniel Raphael, Colorado.He T/R Monjoronson and Machiventa Melchizedek.  There is a book that Daniel Raphael wrote from information from Monjoronson , Global Sustainability and Planetary Management that explains the way the Magisterial Mission want to work with us to create a civilization that provides for the needs of everyone and to fullfil our potential.   You can find it at Starbridgetrust.org  that is a sister site of this one.  Daniel Raphael has a site :  socialsustainabilityproject.com. Hope you check that, it is a project for our future working with Machiventa and Monjoronson as co- creators of our own destiny.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: ASSALE on August 16, 2016, 04:19:46 AM
Very interesting and important topic of discussion. Thank you all.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Kurt on August 16, 2016, 06:45:22 AM
Communism, socialism, capitalism- these terms will become meaningless when civilization collapses and people will have to create new communities in order to survive. Leaders will rise and others will follow. Hopefully the local leadership will be wise, fair and compassionate. Maslow's Hierarchy  of Needs will dictate what must be done for a community to survive.
Some form of local or village government will form to provide direction and disburse food and shelter to those in need. Because people have varying abilities and mental and physical disabilities, provision will always be necessary for those unable to shelter or feed themselves. As long as everyone understands that all are Gods children, then fairness or wealth hoarding should not be a problem. There will always be the poor both in material goods and in spirit and it is the duty of all to help them help themselves.
Teach them to fish.
Domtia
Kurt
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: mauricio on August 16, 2016, 07:21:26 PM
Thank you Father Michael, Sentenact, Ron and all others. are enlightening answers always to the interior. My English is poor and the ideas or questions often fall apart, I need to work with more dedication and love the English language.  :)
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Angela on August 17, 2016, 01:45:57 AM
Communism takes capitalism's profit-based production and transforms it into production as a social service. Most people think that communism and democracy are incompatible. This is a false assumption made on the basis of the Communist Political Party regime of Official Communism or Stalin Communism. Communism should not be viewed as merely a political structure, it should be viewed as a form of social and economic distribution that supports collective decision-making. Democracy is needed in all aspects of social and economic life - from decisions about how and what we teach our children, to the work/leisure balance, to the distribution of goods and services. The UB suggests distribution of suffrage among specialised groups. Voting thus becomes a means for shaping economic and social decisions.
I think this is the "Communism" that we should be discussing.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: the organist on August 17, 2016, 03:02:15 PM
it is my belief that Communism in this world did not work because it's 'authors' did not take into account what I term 'the human factor'.  True communism (Ron's lower case) is a different animal and yes, I do agree that it is compatible with Capitalism.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: felibon on August 17, 2016, 06:13:12 PM
Yes! Totaly agree with you.. " The human factor"
In history all "revolutions" loss the aim in the way.. because in general they are not "natural" and only a small percentage prevails upon the time..
Revolution - human factor = small advance that becomes EVOLUTIONARY..
Remember.. Only the truth passes the proof of time  :)
Domtia
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Angela on August 17, 2016, 06:57:25 PM
Organist, I am not stressing the compatibility of communism and capitalism at all. The democracy we have in western society is weak in the extreme. We have seen very little of the capacity of democracy to promote sustainable practices. Corporate interests, which thrive on capitalism, have usurped the decision-making process. I view communism as collective decision-making at all levels - locally, regionally, nationally and supra-nationally. We can learn lessons from communism that would help us implement democracy, the real kind. But many people have been educated to view communism with suspicion, as inconsistent with democracy. This is only natural considering the exposure we have had in history to oppressive regimes.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: the organist on August 18, 2016, 07:26:27 AM
Angela, The ideal life is a self governed life.  The 'evolved' forms of government will no longer exist.  This is how we will live when we are set in the higher stages of 'Light and Life' here on Urantia.  Of course, the ideal is one language and one belief/religion.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: felibon on August 18, 2016, 09:57:35 AM
That's it! Nothing more nothing less .. This is the purpose of long term project called LIGHT AND LIFE
But meanwile we have to deal with evolutionary governments..  :D


Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: SpeaktheWisdom on August 18, 2016, 01:41:37 PM
The ideal life is a self governed life. 

Thank you Organist, I am glad someone else is vocalizing the more rational of social organizations. The personal! That which is exercised in self-rule is the foundation of capacity for choosing the self-forgetful life. All of the normative expressions of social organization are impersonal and that is why they must sustain themselves with Justice, Power and Sovereignty. (Unfortunately with a lack of Divine rulers, we have had only man's version of Justice, Power and Sovereignty, and even then, they were/are often times not his ideals of such.)

But when the Gospel of the Kingdom is truly in the hearts of men, they will understand and exhibit the fruits of the spirit in respect to the first cardinal feature of the Gospel of the Kingdom: The Pre-eminence of the Individual! When that is realized in the heart, understood in the mind, and expressed with the body, through wisdom and loving service, the reality of those personal aspects of Deity are what will characterize our social condition (which is what gives rise to its organization): Love, Mercy and Ministry. Our experience, then, with a greater propensity toward the expression of: Truth, Beauty and Goodness.



Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: MidiChlorian on August 18, 2016, 08:58:16 PM
The interest in Communism most readily comes from Biblical accounts that when Jesus formed the group, they held everything in common.  However after His passing, the group went a little to far with the initial format that Jesus established, and they became too stringent with what Jesus introduced.  

One must remember that in those times the situation was different then what it is today.  In Russian communism, there was always a flaw in that there was established two classes of authority and that for the working class, there was no provision for betterment.  For those who did not truly understand the idea, regarding work, and quota's for workers, those who understood worked hard for the people's progress and those who did not understand, merely performed their work as was set by quota's, no more nor less.  Although, sometimes less.  Therefore, there was no incentive to work harder for the people's goals because many didn't care because they received no more nor less then others.  The same thing applied to producing food, where there was no provision for the farmers to produce extra food or crops other than what was required, however, there were ways for them to produce a little more on the side which ended up in the black market.  There is no problem in having a little more than someone else as long as the someone else has enough to live.  Then there were those who were in the upper class or government, which were rewarded for their work or loyalty to the party, as long as it was for government superiority, where in these cases became hidden to many of the working classes, but as these differences became more public, created social problems and resentment.  

The problem with holding all in common, is that there is regulation for fair distribution of wealth and services, because you own nothing, so why work hard for the group, if you get nothing to show for it?  But, there are ways to get around these issues, where the systems can be combined, as long as the lowest class or group, receives the same standard as others, and that those who work harder, can receive some form of compensation which makes their lives better, without allowing their status to oppress the minimal standards.

There are many ways to establish a better life style for everyone, as long as the minimal needs are established for everyone regardless of their ability to acquire funds to keep them at the standard required.  In the USA today, it is possible to gradually make changes to the system where in the long run, there would be no need for taxation of any kind, or at least, no noticeable for of taxation, which would be built into the infrastructure. It is even possible to pay off the national debt in a short period of time. It is a doable thing but, would require a Constitutional Congress in order to make the needed changes and establish a limit on personal growth to reasonable level to keep those with power from wanting more power over others by doing nothing but acquiring more wealth, which they could not possibly ever spend. 

How is it possible that the top three present control ninety-nine present of the worlds wealth, and we still have poverty in this world?  Greed for more power to oppress others?             
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Angela on August 18, 2016, 09:27:31 PM

Quote
Angela, The ideal life is a self governed life.  The 'evolved' forms of government will no longer exist.  This is how we will live when we are set in the higher stages of 'Light and Life' here on Urantia.  Of course, the ideal is one language and one belief/religion.

Is a person an island unto themselves? Our personal growth is achieved through our loving interactions with others and our responsibility taken for ensuring that everyone receives what they need to grow, learn and prosper in all facets of society be they physical, mental, emotional, intellectual, social, cultural or spiritual. Every society needs structured governance. I see greater structure and greater involvement for all citizens in governance in the future, not less.
Governance is all the more necessary in times of turmoil to better organise the additional assistance needed in certain areas hardest hit. Representative democracy is all about giving voice to every individual to contribute to the limitations that ensure we all have sufficient liberty without infringing on the liberty of those around us. How else is that achieved but through governance? Self-awareness and enlightenment is not solely achieved through an inward process. Our personal growth is achieved through our involvement with others. That interaction and love is not simply shared with those in our immediate vicinity. As a number of people become individually enlightened, they then shape the way a regional area views its approach and direction for growth. In this way policies are shaped for increasing the quality of life of all individuals, so that everyone can reach their full creative and inventive potential. In this way the progress of one individual can have dramatic implications for a local region, which then passes on what it has learned to the nation and ultimately through positive example, the entire world. That is the means whereby we achieve some uniformity and learn from each others successes in a "bottom up" process. There is also the "top down" process for designing policy and that should be achieved through wide-spread consultation and deliberative assembly/polls.
Self-reflection on the past is our teacher and from this past we learn that it is a mistake to expect the few members of our government to solve society's problems without the involvement of all members of society. Thus the need for democratic governance.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Angela on August 18, 2016, 11:25:44 PM
This topic is so interesting for me, it is such a challenge to apply lessons of the past in new and innovative ways to improve our future.
Karl Marx thought that communism (the real kind, not the false oppressive variety) would naturally be adopted when scarcity of resources was resolved. At that point liberty from the yoke of employment (long hours for insufficient pay) would generate free time sufficient to bring in an era of technological, philosophical and artistic advancement. The natural societal progression is from tribal, to feudal, to industrial, to capitalism, to socialism, to finally arrive at communism where equality, quality of life and opportunity can at last flourish.
Here is an interesting question: Is Star Trek an example of this form of communism?
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: mauricio on August 19, 2016, 12:44:00 AM
The interest in Communism most readily comes from Biblical accounts that when Jesus formed the group, they held everything in common.  However after His passing, the group went a little to far with the initial format that Jesus established, and they became too stringent with what Jesus introduced.  

One must remember that in those times the situation was different then what it is today.  In Russian communism, there was always a flaw in that there was established two classes of authority and that for the working class, there was no provision for betterment.  For those who did not truly understand the idea, regarding work, and quota's for workers, those who understood worked hard for the people's progress and those who did not understand, merely performed their work as was set by quota's, no more nor less.  Although, sometimes less.  Therefore, there was no incentive to work harder for the people's goals because many didn't care because they received no more nor less then others.  The same thing applied to producing food, where there was no provision for the farmers to produce extra food or crops other than what was required, however, there were ways for them to produce a little more on the side which ended up in the black market.  There is no problem in having a little more than someone else as long as the someone else has enough to live.  Then there were those who were in the upper class or government, which were rewarded for their work or loyalty to the party, as long as it was for government superiority, where in these cases became hidden to many of the working classes, but as these differences became more public, created social problems and resentment.  

The problem with holding all in common, is that there is regulation for fair distribution of wealth and services, because you own nothing, so why work hard for the group, if you get nothing to show for it?  But, there are ways to get around these issues, where the systems can be combined, as long as the lowest class or group, receives the same standard as others, and that those who work harder, can receive some form of compensation which makes their lives better, without allowing their status to oppress the minimal standards.

There are many ways to establish a better life style for everyone, as long as the minimal needs are established for everyone regardless of their ability to acquire funds to keep them at the standard required.  In the USA today, it is possible to gradually make changes to the system where in the long run, there would be no need for taxation of any kind, or at least, no noticeable for of taxation, which would be built into the infrastructure. It is even possible to pay off the national debt in a short period of time. It is a doable thing but, would require a Constitutional Congress in order to make the needed changes and establish a limit on personal growth to reasonable level to keep those with power from wanting more power over others by doing nothing but acquiring more wealth, which they could not possibly ever spend.

How is it possible that the top three present control ninety-nine present of the worlds wealth, and we still have poverty in this world?  Greed for more power to oppress others?            

MidiChlorian Thanks for explaining, I need to add time and efficiency, where we are, unresolved in time and efficiency, I believe that a stabilization of the society, culture, justice and policy is connected that we are poor in altruistic values in all these that I quoted. so that where there is inequality in all these above they generate envy and greed, then man can not govern themselves. the lack of the element spirit to become a finaliter man to self govern today. God fragment in our minds work hard to be houvido by virtually almost 100% of us, I understand that Ron listening 100% why it is finalized in spirit, altruistic values open our society I speak worldwide, we need to work as a company global family and , listen to our god fragment and be selfless, we have to worry about the soul that will also generate the altruistic services in the morontia. We need God fragment of communication to work with the language of the universe, being guided by God fragment. the universal language I believe it will be beneficial for future generations, as they will forward thinking mind to other minds thoughts of where, can they talk to animals and plants in order to feel its vibrations then yes man will be able to do much more in time and efficiency because I see that it will build for the future children, the world will be peaceful nation seeing love and service in all things

sorry for my English

Angela and the others, thank you for your lessons

particularly I think the money should be materialized in a less selfish thing, it takes time and efficiency.

for example we work with a lot of time without much efficiency, why we are concerned with time, and not be efficient, there is probably a physical and mental strain that explains the lack of efficiency

I particularly do not see the money with good eyes, he corrupts efficiency
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: esther on August 19, 2016, 02:12:08 AM
I invite All to read or study  again or for the first time Paper  17 ; Development  of the State  on page  800 of the Urantia Book. There  a Melchizedek  explains  the enduring state is founded in culture, dominated by ideals, and motivated by service.  As in the Program  on Social Sustainability  ( Monjoronson 's Plan for civilizations to survive with our Intentional  and educated participation)  the author tells us that a civilization to endure and be effective needs to provide it's citizens all the rights, freedoms and opportunities to develop all the talents and potentials that are in their nature. Is the right to be Happy , to be able to be what The Father Willed for us. That is not going to happen until we evolve spiritually and intellectually and work with our Paradise Teachers and our Planetary Manager  Machiventa.  That is what we have been ask to do , only we can do it with their help ,a partnership ,a co- creative effort, that everyone of us in our own communities can participate contributing in anyway possible to meet the goal of  a a Happy  and Enlightened  Planet.   I recommend you read also the NEC# 61, Jan 25,2016 : T/ R Daniel Raphael , Colorado. There are 12 transmissions , from June 11,2006  to Jan1,2007 from Monjoronson and others that are the material covered in the Sustainability Project. NEC# 61 is a recent transmission explaining  the Project and our part on it.  Hope this helps.  Is as simple as elevating the Golden Rule to the teachings of Jesus.         Blessings. esther 
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Angela on August 19, 2016, 02:57:59 AM
Captain Jean-Luc Picard explains how Capitalism has been replaced by communism, in First Contact 1996:
"A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We've grown out of our infancy.
"The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."

Esther do you mean Paper 71:

71:6.1 (805.5) Present-day profit-motivated economics is doomed unless profit motives can be augmented by service motives. Ruthless competition based on narrow-minded self-interest is ultimately destructive of even those things which it seeks to maintain. Exclusive and self-serving profit motivation is incompatible with Christian ideals — much more incompatible with the teachings of Jesus.

Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: LarryG on August 19, 2016, 07:32:11 AM
My dear Angela, I look forward with great anticipation to that time in our history when these advancements evolve, however long that may take and I am sure that the coming Missions to Urantia will  see to it  that something akin to this takes place for all of mankind.  I have said a few times that surely there are places in the Universes of Time that civilizations have progressed to the point where economies are based and maintained on more altruistic concerns.   Surely the approach to and use of the profit motive can be balanced towards these better goals for all. The whole, in the very simplest of terms, "ideal" of "one for all and all for one" which is similar to communism, lower case c instead of what we most often associate with our historic view and example of Political and Governmental Communism as it has demonstrated itself to be. Thanks for your post and thoughts.  LarryG
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: esther on August 19, 2016, 12:29:56 PM
Yes , I mean  Paper 71.Thank you Angela. You are very right in what we need to change.       What I think many people, like me,don't like is using a word with  a really bad significance and  bad consequences  throughout this World in the past as is the communism system as we were witnesses to  all that was and is wrong with it.    Why not take the best of the Ideal and change and develop a system base on our experiences and our values.Use what worked,ask for help in the Design and start locally.With Intention , and determination we will have the Guidance of the Planetary Spiritual Government and will be contributing to the Supreme and Urantia' s Planetary consciousness.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Angela on August 19, 2016, 08:57:04 PM
Thank you to both of you, Larry and Esther. Loved the Star Trek scene, Jim. Although an elected official would ultimately be at the top of a chain-of-command. In First Contact Data says "To hell with orders" when Captain Picard asks if anyone in the room objects to his decision to ignore them and save the day. Why was Data so emphatic? He had his emotion chip turned on.
I agree, Esther. Fear and mistrust can easily defeat new initiates. The Teaching Mission is so important, it will re-educate us on the best way forward. I see the core values coming through many times in the UB. I think we will have a breakdown of organised society. Necessity will then lead the way towards gradual adjustment. There will be a democratic collective established from the scattered administrations of our remaining populations. That collective will slowly decide to replace the profit motivation with the six core values after gathering a lot of evidence of the success in this approach. I hope I can help by becoming involved in local initiatives. Finally, these successes will convince a sufficient number to make the changes everywhere. Machiventa Melchizedek advises us in the UB:

Quote
The present social order is not necessarily right — not divine or sacred — but mankind will do well to move slowly in making changes. That which you have is vastly better than any system known to your ancestors. Make certain that when you change the social order you change for the better. Do not be persuaded to experiment with the discarded formulas of your forefathers. Go forward, not backward! Let evolution proceed! Do not take a backward step. 69:9.18 (782.5)

Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: esther on August 19, 2016, 09:47:36 PM
I totally agree with you Angela.  With our Teachers and Planetary Management help;  including,for sure, Michael and Mother Nebadonia,Monjoronson,  Serara and The Paradise Father  ; there is nothing  that we can't do together!  Or should I say, we are One and as One we should be able to Do Father's Will... Thanks All , this has been a great discussion.    Blessings.   esther 
Title: Serviceism?
Post by: Angela on August 21, 2016, 08:12:26 PM
Mauricio, you mention inefficiency and poor use of time as one of the drags on society that could be resolved through communism. I see so many professions and institutions that do not contribute to the advancement of society, that hold back or even reduce quality of life. The financial sector with the shoveling of money around simply by dragging and clicking a mouse. This industry employs valuable and talented people, monopolising their lives in meaningless calculations. We place a monetary value on work that bears no relation to the value of the individual. We value some activities too highly and others not at all. I don't believe this waste is socially sustainable. Think of all the free hours and efficiency generated if we prune away those functions and industries that do not advance society or contribute to quality of life.
We should be searching for the relationship between religion and communism. It is found in the teachings of Jesus - to individually live our lives in brotherhood, in service to others and for the betterment of everyone. This promotes quality of life, opportunities to express creativity and invention and the more efficient use of time. How ironic it is that Karl Marx thought religion an institutional illusion that created false hope. If only he had known what we now know. That the Kingdom of God is not institutional, it is the living expression of the individual's faith, their inspired love of every brother and sister as recognition of their value. I think this is the "human element" and the "self-governed life" mentioned by The Organist, SpeaktheWisdom and Felibon. But I wonder whether it is possible for large numbers to choose a life of service without institutional support. We need to institutionalise this ideal through a democratic process. It may just be that we would collectively choose a more ideal form of democratic communism. Perhaps we could call it serviceism?
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: MidiChlorian on August 21, 2016, 09:12:40 PM
In order to better understand the Communist Manifesto, it is necessary to actually research its history and read it as it had originally been presented to Europe not Russia, but it was drafted in German before it was reworked into many European Languages and for the most part formulated in England.
It was named "Communist" versus "Socialist" because the Socialist were considered the middle class and this presentation was designed for the working class.
I have included the HTML (http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61/pg61.html) and PDF (http://www.slp.org/pdf/marx/comm_man.pdf) presentation below, from the online listing of the Communist Manifesto, for your review.

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61/pg61.html (http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61/pg61.html)

http://www.slp.org/pdf/marx/comm_man.pdf (http://www.slp.org/pdf/marx/comm_man.pdf)

Title: Re: Serviceism?
Post by: MidiChlorian on August 21, 2016, 09:55:49 PM
[. . .] How ironic it is that Karl Marx thought religion an institutional illusion that created false hope. If only he had known what we now know. That the Kingdom of God is not institutional, it is the living expression of the individual's faith, their inspired love of every brother and sister as recognition of their value. [. . .]
I believe that Marx was not so much against "religion" even though he used that word several times, but it was what, in those day's and throughout history that religion represented, the "Church" organization which was part of the bourgeoisie, the establishment.

Quote from: Marx - Manifesto regarding Religion
The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his "natural superiors," and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous "cash payment." It has drowned the most heavenly ecstasies of religious fervour, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless and indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom—Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.

[. . .]

Law, morality, religion, are to him so many bourgeois prejudices, behind which lurk in ambush just as many bourgeois interests.

[. . .]

The charges against Communism made from a religious, a philosophical, and, generally, from an ideological standpoint, are not deserving of serious examination.

Does it require deep intuition to comprehend that man's ideas, views and conceptions, in one word, man's consciousness, changes with every change in the conditions of his material existence, in his social relations and in his social life?

What else does the history of ideas prove, than that intellectual production changes its character in proportion as material production is changed? The ruling ideas of each age have ever been the ideas of its ruling class.

When people speak of ideas that revolutionise society, they do but express the fact, that within the old society, the elements of a new one have been created, and that the dissolution of the old ideas keeps even pace with the dissolution of the old conditions of existence.

When the ancient world was in its last throes, the ancient religions were overcome by Christianity. When Christian ideas succumbed in the 18th century to rationalist ideas, feudal society fought its death battle with the then revolutionary bourgeoisie. The ideas of religious liberty and freedom of conscience merely gave expression to the sway of free competition within the domain of knowledge.

"Undoubtedly," it will be said, "religious, moral, philosophical and juridical ideas have been modified in the course of historical development. But religion, morality philosophy, political science, and law, constantly survived this change."

"There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc. that are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience."

What does this accusation reduce itself to? The history of all past society has consisted in the development of class antagonisms, antagonisms that assumed different forms at different epochs.
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Angela on August 21, 2016, 11:22:33 PM
Thank you for these wonderful quotations, MidiChlorian. There have been many God-conscious philosophers who question the value of institutional religion. I am pleased to see that Karl Marx may have been among the God-conscious.
I often wonder whether many Buddhist teachers must, by necessity, remove belief in God from their philosophy to save followers from the negative consequences of religious ideological conflict, from the fear created by the false image of a vengeful god and also the frightening image of hell consuming sinners. For those few, this is not the denial of the existence of God, merely a denial of God's relevance to the Buddhist teachings. Perhaps there is a God-conscious basis to Buddhism that is only accessible to "great minds"? Otherwise the message of peaceful coexistence is drowned by the guilt and fear of institutional religion.

Quote
94:11.4 (1039.3) The great advance made in Buddhist philosophy consisted in its comprehension of the relativity of all truth. Through the mechanism of this hypothesis Buddhists have been able to reconcile and correlate the divergencies within their own religious scriptures as well as the differences between their own and many others. It was taught that the small truth was for little minds, the large truth for great minds.

Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Icon7 on August 22, 2016, 09:02:55 PM
"The problem with all Manifestos, whether on Communism or the US version called the Declaration of Independence, is not with the eloquently stated ideals they contain but with the implementation of those ideals by less than ideal human beings."

Douglas McGruter
August 2016
USA
8)
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: RichardB on January 07, 2018, 07:33:31 PM
Reading these posts,  here are some of my thoughts: good inquiry-dialogue beginning........

Here's where I am on this: wanting to understand the "existence" and "essence" of "communism"....as the existence is posited in language and its relationship to being-in-world....like the debate in philosophy between "existence" and "essence"....see the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy....

I understand Marx's objections arose as an opposing idea to, as Marx put it (in my imperfect understanding),  feudalism which evolved, as I understand it, to "viscious capitalism"....

So, I am not trying to upset anyone with this communication, I am here for the purpose of dialogue...

I am researching "what did  Hegel say, and mean?".  And,  "did that get changed to "The Truth of Communism" "?  

How did the post Hegelians interpret or distort Hegel? which became for Marx "historical materialism"? Which became for Lenin, well.....we have the record of  history....

As I understand the way the universe occurs, truth always wins in the end....

with true dialogue I believe wisdom will emerge....

I believe there is a higher community that we came from and go to....the Community of Spirit and the Spirit of Community....

Thanks to fellow members who have placed this beginning dialogue here

RichardB
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: wendy.winter on January 07, 2018, 07:58:44 PM
@RichardB, Would you mind expanding on your interpretation of what you refer to as the 'higher community that we came from'.  The evolution of a Community of Spirit requires the Spirit of Community as mortal civilizations grow into the cosmic fold.  I look forward to reading more on your thoughts. Wendy
I believe there is a higher community that we came from and go to....the Community of Spirit and the Spirit of Community....
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: felibon on January 07, 2018, 08:37:42 PM
Friends...
 God is a perfume which humans put in bottles of many shapes!

I don’t know nothing about the real intentions of Mr Marx or this philosophers of 19th century..
Marx wrote a book that takes real effect on 20th century and...
Hegel’s philosophy of thesis-antithesis=sinthesis seemed to be an application procedure..
Were this philosophies caligastian inspired?
Whre the collision of capitalism-communism= to .. the last attempt of Caligastia to dominate?

Maybe celestials could enlighthen us if it’s appropiate..

Domtia!
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: RichardB on January 08, 2018, 12:05:11 AM
"I believe there is a higher community that we came from and go to....the Community of Spirit and the Spirit of Community...."


Yes, thankyou for the inquiry....
I realize this to be a thread on Caligastia and his relationship to communism....
So, it would take some elaboration and time for me to develop the thoughts I've accululated,
a)
So, I am trying to say regarding the question of communism, my thought is that the background that the question comes out of might be: "what is community?". Certainly, there's
an association between "communism" and "community" that we can agree on....
So, what I read in the Communist Manifesto is nothing like "community", in any fashion...in fact, it has nothing to do with community as far as I can tell, and I've been trying to understand this social arrangement since I was in high school.....
I'm not entirely discarding Marx; as a human, he stumbled on some truths (in my opinion) that we can gain something of value, for he seems to have engaged in the question of what is just and fair (as far as I can tell). But, my thought about this is that a negative (exploitive and predatory capitalism) cannot be improved with another negative (dictatorship of the proletariat); a group that's oppressed commits to overthrow the oppressors with another oppression....which is what I see as a central doctrine of "communism".  I think that is the opposite of community. If communism is inherently positive, then it should occur that we naturally evolve to .....what....a worldwide community of material bliss that is nonspiritual?...
That seems to me to be the commitment of "communism"....
Community in my mind has an inherent association with freedom....and positive energy...
b)
So, this idea of community....I have to be brief, and can't do this topic justice in this one thread, I will have to develop this....I am developing it....when did community first occur for humans? I would say we'd have to start with the Twins (Paper 62:5)...there is so much that could be said that there's no time (or place for on this post)... which I think were the first humans...they developed language, which occurs as an expression of mind...evolution of mind...language > mind > human being > occurance of "community" in language and "being-in-world".....>evolution of human community....
I apologize for some technical language but its not easy to convey some ideas without using it....
Heidegger used the phrase "language is the house of being".....
c)
we come from a higher community and go to a higher community...
...meaning, the higher community that brought the Life Carriers to Urantia and the world they came from....
......we go to a higher community,   the mansion worlds....
...and we are now in a spiritual community.....
d)
Hegel's book Phenomenology of Spirit introduces "spirit" into philosophic discussion...
I cant say much about that as I am actively researching that and don't have adequately formed ideas yet, ...except...I think Spirit is something we have a more developed idea on than was available at the time of Hegel...so here I would make a connection of Spirit and Community...
I think the relation of all these ideas is beyond the scope of this posting, but I'm trying to say
a spiritual community gave us humans, we have a spiritual community we are in, and we will continue to live in a spiritual community....Spirit of Life...Spirit of Community...Planetary Supreme Urantia....evolution of community....
I'm not a philosopher by profession, although I read their stuff....I should stop here....
d)
I thought the dialectic originated from Hegel, but with further review, it seems to me now that it was active with Socrates....but a true professor of philosophy has informed me that the "dialogue" I believed in is actually a monologue where said philosophy professor is actually trying to manipulate the conversation  to his own point of view....
I really must stop here.....I fear a swarm of hornets might overtake me....the thread is about Caligastia and communism...I don't fear Caligastia or communism....I serve the Spirit of Community...
I must stop now I have said enough
Thankyou
RichardB






Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Ron Besser on January 08, 2018, 12:25:36 AM
Richard, fyi, Hegel and Kant preceded Marx by a quarter of a century I think and Marx was not talking about Lenin and his revocation of the ideas of Kant for the ideas of Marx as modified by the heart of God on Urantia.  But Lenin took out of favor with Marx only to insist that Marx was too weak to seize the opportunity to be the head of a country as a Marxist dictator.  Lenin held Marx was correct philosophically but wrong in civil authority to enforce population integration as communes.

I am pretty rusty on the German philosophers finding them interesting but non applicable in the society of today that understands nothing any more except social anarchy.  In that the voters in this and other democracies do not have the slightest idea what they would really accept as dictators or proletarians.  In any case your basic question is to what extent Marxism and communism, and the Soviet Union become influenced by the civil manipulations of Caligastia, the earth devil?

Since I really do not know the answer to that question, let us ask Michael of Nebadon how he views the question:

MICHAEL OF NEBADON Speaks -
"I seldom quest for this kind of information except to assure you that Caligastia in 1918 was so unnerved by Lenin he let him have his way but really did not have anything to do with the Communist revolution, the killing of the children of the Tsar and his wife, and the confiscation of the crown jewels which have been restored to the palace in Leningrad now  St. Petersburg in 1991 again.  Caligastia viewed Communism as an idealistic impossibility, but Lenin outfoxed them all by seizing control of the government through the Duma and would not relent until the past traditions of monarchy were scourged from his country.  Caligastia saw Germany as the place to undo Urantia and the Bestowal Son Jesus and he concentrated his hatred of Michael there and that is how he got in control of Hitler's thinking.  Caligastia motioned Hitler into power and much to his horror lost control of the man Hitler who continued to bully and murder all in his way in those days.  You would make a more important contribution if you switched studies to the Third Reich to determine the persuasion Caligastia had over Urantia at that time.  Thank you.  Michael of Nebadon."
END
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: 7inOcean on January 08, 2018, 01:15:36 AM
Hi RichardB,
Since Michael of Nebadon mentions the Third Reich or the third regime or empire  as I googled what that is, I also found this article which is quite disturbing to know that drugs fuelled such menacing behaviours as this articles points out.

See link : https://newrepublic.com/article/141125/third-reich-addicted-drugs

I can see how Caligastia had quite an easy time with what developed and what worries me is that this drug or opioid menace is growing today and that the drug-related suicides are occurring frequently in our current climate. If you like to look at "community", then our society is in deep trouble if we have a drug war to deal with.

Sue/7inOcean
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: felibon on January 08, 2018, 03:26:59 AM
Aknowledge Miquel ..
Sue, Pervitin was a drug that german troops use as candys!
If you read about this subject, you’ll unserstand a lot of things german troops did during that period
of time.. and the worst was that Nazi heads were addicted to drugs in his majority..

Domtia.


Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: 7inOcean on January 08, 2018, 06:47:42 AM
To tell you the truth, I didn't know about the drug called Pervitin until I watched a documentary a short time ago probably on the Discovery channel about the Nazi Megastructures they built. These two researchers found this concrete bunker that posed as one strategically placed with all guns blazing at their opponents for some length of time and discovered something that even they were quite surprised. The few German soldiers who had to hunker down in it for some days without food and still defend it somehow had them scratching their heads wondering how did they do that?  It lead them to some archives and that's where they uncovered this drug called Pervitin (as it is well explained in the above article link I posted earlier) that appeared to have been quite prevalent for the soldiers to use back then, this revelation shocked me as it did for those researchers. I am in a generation that doesn't know much about this war and finding this out is really scary stuff to have that happening way before my time. Really, finding out our history in The Urantia Book is still very raw for me to take and it's going to take a while for me, and I dare say, all of us to absorb it all. It's a wonder how we managed as a specie to even make it this far. Wars have come and gone and for our ancestors to have somehow survived through it only just.  I can only imagine how busy the angels have been through all these years. And now we are faced with a possible nuclear madness. What we can learn from history, we may do better not to repeat so much that has not served us very well. My thoughts and prayers be with our Creative parents who have had to endure so much heartache as this Rebellion becomes clearer for us to understand.

Sue/7inOcean
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Allie on January 08, 2018, 11:11:51 AM
I was born near the end of WW II.   As I grew up, I met an older cousin who had been in that war.   He was captured and spent time in a German POW camp.   Although he shared some things , most of his memories were kept inside and not shared, even with his family.   He eventually died as a result of his treatment in that camp, even though he was still a young man.

Reading of the drug use during the war does not surprise me.   It answers many of the questions as to the cause of such inhuman behavior.    Now I live in a state that is rampant in opioid drug use.   The statistics are alarming with so many families affected.   I pray to the Father to end this horror since it appears we cannot or will not do it ourselves.

Namaste,
Allie
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: Ron Hammar on January 08, 2018, 02:43:26 PM
All that we have been told about the reason for WW2 will in the future be showing us that most of it is a lie. Like the question that needs to be asked of the victors history "Did you tell the Truth?"
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: RichardB on January 09, 2018, 12:53:47 AM
Hello:
Thankyou all for the comments and thankyou Ron and Michael....
Michael's statement provided some clarity for me...actually, everyone is ....Thankyou again Michael...I value your response...
Just over a month ago I didn't even know this site existed....
I intend to say nothing divisive or inflammatory, but rather, to be positive...
I have to clear my head, and take some time to digest this, so I can communicate coherently...
I'll work with my adjuster on this....he's pretty used to me by now....I think, maybe I'm not used to him....
RichardB
Title: Re: Caligastia and Communism
Post by: RichardB on January 14, 2018, 07:27:33 PM
I was able to review Ron Besser's transmission of December 5, 2017... I got it. Thankyou.
 Topic: Sharing Received Transmission