Author Topic: Caligastia and Communism  (Read 5802 times)

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the organist

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2016, 03:02:15 PM »
it is my belief that Communism in this world did not work because it's 'authors' did not take into account what I term 'the human factor'.  True communism (Ron's lower case) is a different animal and yes, I do agree that it is compatible with Capitalism.

felibon

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2016, 06:13:12 PM »
Yes! Totaly agree with you.. " The human factor"
In history all "revolutions" loss the aim in the way.. because in general they are not "natural" and only a small percentage prevails upon the time..
Revolution - human factor = small advance that becomes EVOLUTIONARY..
Remember.. Only the truth passes the proof of time  :)
Domtia

Angela

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2016, 06:57:25 PM »
Organist, I am not stressing the compatibility of communism and capitalism at all. The democracy we have in western society is weak in the extreme. We have seen very little of the capacity of democracy to promote sustainable practices. Corporate interests, which thrive on capitalism, have usurped the decision-making process. I view communism as collective decision-making at all levels - locally, regionally, nationally and supra-nationally. We can learn lessons from communism that would help us implement democracy, the real kind. But many people have been educated to view communism with suspicion, as inconsistent with democracy. This is only natural considering the exposure we have had in history to oppressive regimes.
But the noblest of all memories are the treasured recollections of the great moments of a superb friendship. 160:4.12 (1779.4)

the organist

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2016, 07:26:27 AM »
Angela, The ideal life is a self governed life.  The 'evolved' forms of government will no longer exist.  This is how we will live when we are set in the higher stages of 'Light and Life' here on Urantia.  Of course, the ideal is one language and one belief/religion.

felibon

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2016, 09:57:35 AM »
That's it! Nothing more nothing less .. This is the purpose of long term project called LIGHT AND LIFE
But meanwile we have to deal with evolutionary governments..  :D



SpeaktheWisdom

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2016, 01:41:37 PM »
The ideal life is a self governed life. 

Thank you Organist, I am glad someone else is vocalizing the more rational of social organizations. The personal! That which is exercised in self-rule is the foundation of capacity for choosing the self-forgetful life. All of the normative expressions of social organization are impersonal and that is why they must sustain themselves with Justice, Power and Sovereignty. (Unfortunately with a lack of Divine rulers, we have had only man's version of Justice, Power and Sovereignty, and even then, they were/are often times not his ideals of such.)

But when the Gospel of the Kingdom is truly in the hearts of men, they will understand and exhibit the fruits of the spirit in respect to the first cardinal feature of the Gospel of the Kingdom: The Pre-eminence of the Individual! When that is realized in the heart, understood in the mind, and expressed with the body, through wisdom and loving service, the reality of those personal aspects of Deity are what will characterize our social condition (which is what gives rise to its organization): Love, Mercy and Ministry. Our experience, then, with a greater propensity toward the expression of: Truth, Beauty and Goodness.




MidiChlorian

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2016, 08:58:16 PM »
The interest in Communism most readily comes from Biblical accounts that when Jesus formed the group, they held everything in common.  However after His passing, the group went a little to far with the initial format that Jesus established, and they became too stringent with what Jesus introduced.  

One must remember that in those times the situation was different then what it is today.  In Russian communism, there was always a flaw in that there was established two classes of authority and that for the working class, there was no provision for betterment.  For those who did not truly understand the idea, regarding work, and quota's for workers, those who understood worked hard for the people's progress and those who did not understand, merely performed their work as was set by quota's, no more nor less.  Although, sometimes less.  Therefore, there was no incentive to work harder for the people's goals because many didn't care because they received no more nor less then others.  The same thing applied to producing food, where there was no provision for the farmers to produce extra food or crops other than what was required, however, there were ways for them to produce a little more on the side which ended up in the black market.  There is no problem in having a little more than someone else as long as the someone else has enough to live.  Then there were those who were in the upper class or government, which were rewarded for their work or loyalty to the party, as long as it was for government superiority, where in these cases became hidden to many of the working classes, but as these differences became more public, created social problems and resentment.  

The problem with holding all in common, is that there is regulation for fair distribution of wealth and services, because you own nothing, so why work hard for the group, if you get nothing to show for it?  But, there are ways to get around these issues, where the systems can be combined, as long as the lowest class or group, receives the same standard as others, and that those who work harder, can receive some form of compensation which makes their lives better, without allowing their status to oppress the minimal standards.

There are many ways to establish a better life style for everyone, as long as the minimal needs are established for everyone regardless of their ability to acquire funds to keep them at the standard required.  In the USA today, it is possible to gradually make changes to the system where in the long run, there would be no need for taxation of any kind, or at least, no noticeable for of taxation, which would be built into the infrastructure. It is even possible to pay off the national debt in a short period of time. It is a doable thing but, would require a Constitutional Congress in order to make the needed changes and establish a limit on personal growth to reasonable level to keep those with power from wanting more power over others by doing nothing but acquiring more wealth, which they could not possibly ever spend. 

How is it possible that the top three present control ninety-nine present of the worlds wealth, and we still have poverty in this world?  Greed for more power to oppress others?             
The Reality of knowing what Wisdom is, is in the Experiencing of the Philosophy of using Knowledge.

Angela

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2016, 09:27:31 PM »

Quote
Angela, The ideal life is a self governed life.  The 'evolved' forms of government will no longer exist.  This is how we will live when we are set in the higher stages of 'Light and Life' here on Urantia.  Of course, the ideal is one language and one belief/religion.

Is a person an island unto themselves? Our personal growth is achieved through our loving interactions with others and our responsibility taken for ensuring that everyone receives what they need to grow, learn and prosper in all facets of society be they physical, mental, emotional, intellectual, social, cultural or spiritual. Every society needs structured governance. I see greater structure and greater involvement for all citizens in governance in the future, not less.
Governance is all the more necessary in times of turmoil to better organise the additional assistance needed in certain areas hardest hit. Representative democracy is all about giving voice to every individual to contribute to the limitations that ensure we all have sufficient liberty without infringing on the liberty of those around us. How else is that achieved but through governance? Self-awareness and enlightenment is not solely achieved through an inward process. Our personal growth is achieved through our involvement with others. That interaction and love is not simply shared with those in our immediate vicinity. As a number of people become individually enlightened, they then shape the way a regional area views its approach and direction for growth. In this way policies are shaped for increasing the quality of life of all individuals, so that everyone can reach their full creative and inventive potential. In this way the progress of one individual can have dramatic implications for a local region, which then passes on what it has learned to the nation and ultimately through positive example, the entire world. That is the means whereby we achieve some uniformity and learn from each others successes in a "bottom up" process. There is also the "top down" process for designing policy and that should be achieved through wide-spread consultation and deliberative assembly/polls.
Self-reflection on the past is our teacher and from this past we learn that it is a mistake to expect the few members of our government to solve society's problems without the involvement of all members of society. Thus the need for democratic governance.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 10:48:35 PM by Angela »
But the noblest of all memories are the treasured recollections of the great moments of a superb friendship. 160:4.12 (1779.4)

Angela

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2016, 11:25:44 PM »
This topic is so interesting for me, it is such a challenge to apply lessons of the past in new and innovative ways to improve our future.
Karl Marx thought that communism (the real kind, not the false oppressive variety) would naturally be adopted when scarcity of resources was resolved. At that point liberty from the yoke of employment (long hours for insufficient pay) would generate free time sufficient to bring in an era of technological, philosophical and artistic advancement. The natural societal progression is from tribal, to feudal, to industrial, to capitalism, to socialism, to finally arrive at communism where equality, quality of life and opportunity can at last flourish.
Here is an interesting question: Is Star Trek an example of this form of communism?
But the noblest of all memories are the treasured recollections of the great moments of a superb friendship. 160:4.12 (1779.4)

mauricio

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2016, 12:44:00 AM »
The interest in Communism most readily comes from Biblical accounts that when Jesus formed the group, they held everything in common.  However after His passing, the group went a little to far with the initial format that Jesus established, and they became too stringent with what Jesus introduced.  

One must remember that in those times the situation was different then what it is today.  In Russian communism, there was always a flaw in that there was established two classes of authority and that for the working class, there was no provision for betterment.  For those who did not truly understand the idea, regarding work, and quota's for workers, those who understood worked hard for the people's progress and those who did not understand, merely performed their work as was set by quota's, no more nor less.  Although, sometimes less.  Therefore, there was no incentive to work harder for the people's goals because many didn't care because they received no more nor less then others.  The same thing applied to producing food, where there was no provision for the farmers to produce extra food or crops other than what was required, however, there were ways for them to produce a little more on the side which ended up in the black market.  There is no problem in having a little more than someone else as long as the someone else has enough to live.  Then there were those who were in the upper class or government, which were rewarded for their work or loyalty to the party, as long as it was for government superiority, where in these cases became hidden to many of the working classes, but as these differences became more public, created social problems and resentment.  

The problem with holding all in common, is that there is regulation for fair distribution of wealth and services, because you own nothing, so why work hard for the group, if you get nothing to show for it?  But, there are ways to get around these issues, where the systems can be combined, as long as the lowest class or group, receives the same standard as others, and that those who work harder, can receive some form of compensation which makes their lives better, without allowing their status to oppress the minimal standards.

There are many ways to establish a better life style for everyone, as long as the minimal needs are established for everyone regardless of their ability to acquire funds to keep them at the standard required.  In the USA today, it is possible to gradually make changes to the system where in the long run, there would be no need for taxation of any kind, or at least, no noticeable for of taxation, which would be built into the infrastructure. It is even possible to pay off the national debt in a short period of time. It is a doable thing but, would require a Constitutional Congress in order to make the needed changes and establish a limit on personal growth to reasonable level to keep those with power from wanting more power over others by doing nothing but acquiring more wealth, which they could not possibly ever spend.

How is it possible that the top three present control ninety-nine present of the worlds wealth, and we still have poverty in this world?  Greed for more power to oppress others?            

MidiChlorian Thanks for explaining, I need to add time and efficiency, where we are, unresolved in time and efficiency, I believe that a stabilization of the society, culture, justice and policy is connected that we are poor in altruistic values in all these that I quoted. so that where there is inequality in all these above they generate envy and greed, then man can not govern themselves. the lack of the element spirit to become a finaliter man to self govern today. God fragment in our minds work hard to be houvido by virtually almost 100% of us, I understand that Ron listening 100% why it is finalized in spirit, altruistic values open our society I speak worldwide, we need to work as a company global family and , listen to our god fragment and be selfless, we have to worry about the soul that will also generate the altruistic services in the morontia. We need God fragment of communication to work with the language of the universe, being guided by God fragment. the universal language I believe it will be beneficial for future generations, as they will forward thinking mind to other minds thoughts of where, can they talk to animals and plants in order to feel its vibrations then yes man will be able to do much more in time and efficiency because I see that it will build for the future children, the world will be peaceful nation seeing love and service in all things

sorry for my English

Angela and the others, thank you for your lessons

particularly I think the money should be materialized in a less selfish thing, it takes time and efficiency.

for example we work with a lot of time without much efficiency, why we are concerned with time, and not be efficient, there is probably a physical and mental strain that explains the lack of efficiency

I particularly do not see the money with good eyes, he corrupts efficiency
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 01:40:43 AM by mauricio »

esther

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2016, 02:12:08 AM »
I invite All to read or study  again or for the first time Paper  17 ; Development  of the State  on page  800 of the Urantia Book. There  a Melchizedek  explains  the enduring state is founded in culture, dominated by ideals, and motivated by service.  As in the Program  on Social Sustainability  ( Monjoronson 's Plan for civilizations to survive with our Intentional  and educated participation)  the author tells us that a civilization to endure and be effective needs to provide it's citizens all the rights, freedoms and opportunities to develop all the talents and potentials that are in their nature. Is the right to be Happy , to be able to be what The Father Willed for us. That is not going to happen until we evolve spiritually and intellectually and work with our Paradise Teachers and our Planetary Manager  Machiventa.  That is what we have been ask to do , only we can do it with their help ,a partnership ,a co- creative effort, that everyone of us in our own communities can participate contributing in anyway possible to meet the goal of  a a Happy  and Enlightened  Planet.   I recommend you read also the NEC# 61, Jan 25,2016 : T/ R Daniel Raphael , Colorado. There are 12 transmissions , from June 11,2006  to Jan1,2007 from Monjoronson and others that are the material covered in the Sustainability Project. NEC# 61 is a recent transmission explaining  the Project and our part on it.  Hope this helps.  Is as simple as elevating the Golden Rule to the teachings of Jesus.         Blessings. esther 

Angela

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2016, 02:57:59 AM »
Captain Jean-Luc Picard explains how Capitalism has been replaced by communism, in First Contact 1996:
"A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We've grown out of our infancy.
"The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."

Esther do you mean Paper 71:

71:6.1 (805.5) Present-day profit-motivated economics is doomed unless profit motives can be augmented by service motives. Ruthless competition based on narrow-minded self-interest is ultimately destructive of even those things which it seeks to maintain. Exclusive and self-serving profit motivation is incompatible with Christian ideals — much more incompatible with the teachings of Jesus.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 07:18:56 PM by Angela »
But the noblest of all memories are the treasured recollections of the great moments of a superb friendship. 160:4.12 (1779.4)

LarryG

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2016, 07:32:11 AM »
My dear Angela, I look forward with great anticipation to that time in our history when these advancements evolve, however long that may take and I am sure that the coming Missions to Urantia will  see to it  that something akin to this takes place for all of mankind.  I have said a few times that surely there are places in the Universes of Time that civilizations have progressed to the point where economies are based and maintained on more altruistic concerns.   Surely the approach to and use of the profit motive can be balanced towards these better goals for all. The whole, in the very simplest of terms, "ideal" of "one for all and all for one" which is similar to communism, lower case c instead of what we most often associate with our historic view and example of Political and Governmental Communism as it has demonstrated itself to be. Thanks for your post and thoughts.  LarryG
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 07:48:58 AM by LarryG »
"What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day so Let us be about the Father's Business"

esther

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2016, 12:29:56 PM »
Yes , I mean  Paper 71.Thank you Angela. You are very right in what we need to change.       What I think many people, like me,don't like is using a word with  a really bad significance and  bad consequences  throughout this World in the past as is the communism system as we were witnesses to  all that was and is wrong with it.    Why not take the best of the Ideal and change and develop a system base on our experiences and our values.Use what worked,ask for help in the Design and start locally.With Intention , and determination we will have the Guidance of the Planetary Spiritual Government and will be contributing to the Supreme and Urantia' s Planetary consciousness.

Angela

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2016, 08:57:04 PM »
Thank you to both of you, Larry and Esther. Loved the Star Trek scene, Jim. Although an elected official would ultimately be at the top of a chain-of-command. In First Contact Data says "To hell with orders" when Captain Picard asks if anyone in the room objects to his decision to ignore them and save the day. Why was Data so emphatic? He had his emotion chip turned on.
I agree, Esther. Fear and mistrust can easily defeat new initiates. The Teaching Mission is so important, it will re-educate us on the best way forward. I see the core values coming through many times in the UB. I think we will have a breakdown of organised society. Necessity will then lead the way towards gradual adjustment. There will be a democratic collective established from the scattered administrations of our remaining populations. That collective will slowly decide to replace the profit motivation with the six core values after gathering a lot of evidence of the success in this approach. I hope I can help by becoming involved in local initiatives. Finally, these successes will convince a sufficient number to make the changes everywhere. Machiventa Melchizedek advises us in the UB:

Quote
The present social order is not necessarily right — not divine or sacred — but mankind will do well to move slowly in making changes. That which you have is vastly better than any system known to your ancestors. Make certain that when you change the social order you change for the better. Do not be persuaded to experiment with the discarded formulas of your forefathers. Go forward, not backward! Let evolution proceed! Do not take a backward step. 69:9.18 (782.5)

But the noblest of all memories are the treasured recollections of the great moments of a superb friendship. 160:4.12 (1779.4)