Author Topic: Caligastia and Communism  (Read 5802 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

esther

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 202
    • View Profile
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2016, 09:47:36 PM »
I totally agree with you Angela.  With our Teachers and Planetary Management help;  including,for sure, Michael and Mother Nebadonia,Monjoronson,  Serara and The Paradise Father  ; there is nothing  that we can't do together!  Or should I say, we are One and as One we should be able to Do Father's Will... Thanks All , this has been a great discussion.    Blessings.   esther 

Angela

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 73
  • Let the perfect will of the Father be done.
    • View Profile
    • Email
Serviceism?
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2016, 08:12:26 PM »
Mauricio, you mention inefficiency and poor use of time as one of the drags on society that could be resolved through communism. I see so many professions and institutions that do not contribute to the advancement of society, that hold back or even reduce quality of life. The financial sector with the shoveling of money around simply by dragging and clicking a mouse. This industry employs valuable and talented people, monopolising their lives in meaningless calculations. We place a monetary value on work that bears no relation to the value of the individual. We value some activities too highly and others not at all. I don't believe this waste is socially sustainable. Think of all the free hours and efficiency generated if we prune away those functions and industries that do not advance society or contribute to quality of life.
We should be searching for the relationship between religion and communism. It is found in the teachings of Jesus - to individually live our lives in brotherhood, in service to others and for the betterment of everyone. This promotes quality of life, opportunities to express creativity and invention and the more efficient use of time. How ironic it is that Karl Marx thought religion an institutional illusion that created false hope. If only he had known what we now know. That the Kingdom of God is not institutional, it is the living expression of the individual's faith, their inspired love of every brother and sister as recognition of their value. I think this is the "human element" and the "self-governed life" mentioned by The Organist, SpeaktheWisdom and Felibon. But I wonder whether it is possible for large numbers to choose a life of service without institutional support. We need to institutionalise this ideal through a democratic process. It may just be that we would collectively choose a more ideal form of democratic communism. Perhaps we could call it serviceism?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 08:14:23 PM by Angela »
But the noblest of all memories are the treasured recollections of the great moments of a superb friendship. 160:4.12 (1779.4)

MidiChlorian

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2016, 09:12:40 PM »
In order to better understand the Communist Manifesto, it is necessary to actually research its history and read it as it had originally been presented to Europe not Russia, but it was drafted in German before it was reworked into many European Languages and for the most part formulated in England.
It was named "Communist" versus "Socialist" because the Socialist were considered the middle class and this presentation was designed for the working class.
I have included the HTML and PDF presentation below, from the online listing of the Communist Manifesto, for your review.

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61/pg61.html

http://www.slp.org/pdf/marx/comm_man.pdf

« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 10:25:37 AM by MidiChlorian »
The Reality of knowing what Wisdom is, is in the Experiencing of the Philosophy of using Knowledge.

MidiChlorian

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Serviceism?
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2016, 09:55:49 PM »
[. . .] How ironic it is that Karl Marx thought religion an institutional illusion that created false hope. If only he had known what we now know. That the Kingdom of God is not institutional, it is the living expression of the individual's faith, their inspired love of every brother and sister as recognition of their value. [. . .]
I believe that Marx was not so much against "religion" even though he used that word several times, but it was what, in those day's and throughout history that religion represented, the "Church" organization which was part of the bourgeoisie, the establishment.

Quote from: Marx - Manifesto regarding Religion
The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his "natural superiors," and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous "cash payment." It has drowned the most heavenly ecstasies of religious fervour, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless and indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom—Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.

[. . .]

Law, morality, religion, are to him so many bourgeois prejudices, behind which lurk in ambush just as many bourgeois interests.

[. . .]

The charges against Communism made from a religious, a philosophical, and, generally, from an ideological standpoint, are not deserving of serious examination.

Does it require deep intuition to comprehend that man's ideas, views and conceptions, in one word, man's consciousness, changes with every change in the conditions of his material existence, in his social relations and in his social life?

What else does the history of ideas prove, than that intellectual production changes its character in proportion as material production is changed? The ruling ideas of each age have ever been the ideas of its ruling class.

When people speak of ideas that revolutionise society, they do but express the fact, that within the old society, the elements of a new one have been created, and that the dissolution of the old ideas keeps even pace with the dissolution of the old conditions of existence.

When the ancient world was in its last throes, the ancient religions were overcome by Christianity. When Christian ideas succumbed in the 18th century to rationalist ideas, feudal society fought its death battle with the then revolutionary bourgeoisie. The ideas of religious liberty and freedom of conscience merely gave expression to the sway of free competition within the domain of knowledge.

"Undoubtedly," it will be said, "religious, moral, philosophical and juridical ideas have been modified in the course of historical development. But religion, morality philosophy, political science, and law, constantly survived this change."

"There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc. that are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience."

What does this accusation reduce itself to? The history of all past society has consisted in the development of class antagonisms, antagonisms that assumed different forms at different epochs.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 09:57:30 PM by MidiChlorian »
The Reality of knowing what Wisdom is, is in the Experiencing of the Philosophy of using Knowledge.

Angela

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 73
  • Let the perfect will of the Father be done.
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2016, 11:22:33 PM »
Thank you for these wonderful quotations, MidiChlorian. There have been many God-conscious philosophers who question the value of institutional religion. I am pleased to see that Karl Marx may have been among the God-conscious.
I often wonder whether many Buddhist teachers must, by necessity, remove belief in God from their philosophy to save followers from the negative consequences of religious ideological conflict, from the fear created by the false image of a vengeful god and also the frightening image of hell consuming sinners. For those few, this is not the denial of the existence of God, merely a denial of God's relevance to the Buddhist teachings. Perhaps there is a God-conscious basis to Buddhism that is only accessible to "great minds"? Otherwise the message of peaceful coexistence is drowned by the guilt and fear of institutional religion.

Quote
94:11.4 (1039.3) The great advance made in Buddhist philosophy consisted in its comprehension of the relativity of all truth. Through the mechanism of this hypothesis Buddhists have been able to reconcile and correlate the divergencies within their own religious scriptures as well as the differences between their own and many others. It was taught that the small truth was for little minds, the large truth for great minds.

But the noblest of all memories are the treasured recollections of the great moments of a superb friendship. 160:4.12 (1779.4)

Icon7

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
  • Love Is All There Is...
    • View Profile
    • Icon7
    • Email
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2016, 09:02:55 PM »
"The problem with all Manifestos, whether on Communism or the US version called the Declaration of Independence, is not with the eloquently stated ideals they contain but with the implementation of those ideals by less than ideal human beings."

Douglas McGruter
August 2016
USA
8)
"Live Hand-in-Hand, and Together We Will Stand, On The Threshold Of A Dream"

RichardB

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2018, 07:33:31 PM »
Reading these posts,  here are some of my thoughts: good inquiry-dialogue beginning........

Here's where I am on this: wanting to understand the "existence" and "essence" of "communism"....as the existence is posited in language and its relationship to being-in-world....like the debate in philosophy between "existence" and "essence"....see the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy....

I understand Marx's objections arose as an opposing idea to, as Marx put it (in my imperfect understanding),  feudalism which evolved, as I understand it, to "viscious capitalism"....

So, I am not trying to upset anyone with this communication, I am here for the purpose of dialogue...

I am researching "what did  Hegel say, and mean?".  And,  "did that get changed to "The Truth of Communism" "?  

How did the post Hegelians interpret or distort Hegel? which became for Marx "historical materialism"? Which became for Lenin, well.....we have the record of  history....

As I understand the way the universe occurs, truth always wins in the end....

with true dialogue I believe wisdom will emerge....

I believe there is a higher community that we came from and go to....the Community of Spirit and the Spirit of Community....

Thanks to fellow members who have placed this beginning dialogue here

RichardB

wendy.winter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 228
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2018, 07:58:44 PM »
@RichardB, Would you mind expanding on your interpretation of what you refer to as the 'higher community that we came from'.  The evolution of a Community of Spirit requires the Spirit of Community as mortal civilizations grow into the cosmic fold.  I look forward to reading more on your thoughts. Wendy
I believe there is a higher community that we came from and go to....the Community of Spirit and the Spirit of Community....

felibon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2018, 08:37:42 PM »
Friends...
 God is a perfume which humans put in bottles of many shapes!

I don’t know nothing about the real intentions of Mr Marx or this philosophers of 19th century..
Marx wrote a book that takes real effect on 20th century and...
Hegel’s philosophy of thesis-antithesis=sinthesis seemed to be an application procedure..
Were this philosophies caligastian inspired?
Whre the collision of capitalism-communism= to .. the last attempt of Caligastia to dominate?

Maybe celestials could enlighthen us if it’s appropiate..

Domtia!

RichardB

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2018, 12:05:11 AM »
"I believe there is a higher community that we came from and go to....the Community of Spirit and the Spirit of Community...."


Yes, thankyou for the inquiry....
I realize this to be a thread on Caligastia and his relationship to communism....
So, it would take some elaboration and time for me to develop the thoughts I've accululated,
a)
So, I am trying to say regarding the question of communism, my thought is that the background that the question comes out of might be: "what is community?". Certainly, there's
an association between "communism" and "community" that we can agree on....
So, what I read in the Communist Manifesto is nothing like "community", in any fashion...in fact, it has nothing to do with community as far as I can tell, and I've been trying to understand this social arrangement since I was in high school.....
I'm not entirely discarding Marx; as a human, he stumbled on some truths (in my opinion) that we can gain something of value, for he seems to have engaged in the question of what is just and fair (as far as I can tell). But, my thought about this is that a negative (exploitive and predatory capitalism) cannot be improved with another negative (dictatorship of the proletariat); a group that's oppressed commits to overthrow the oppressors with another oppression....which is what I see as a central doctrine of "communism".  I think that is the opposite of community. If communism is inherently positive, then it should occur that we naturally evolve to .....what....a worldwide community of material bliss that is nonspiritual?...
That seems to me to be the commitment of "communism"....
Community in my mind has an inherent association with freedom....and positive energy...
b)
So, this idea of community....I have to be brief, and can't do this topic justice in this one thread, I will have to develop this....I am developing it....when did community first occur for humans? I would say we'd have to start with the Twins (Paper 62:5)...there is so much that could be said that there's no time (or place for on this post)... which I think were the first humans...they developed language, which occurs as an expression of mind...evolution of mind...language > mind > human being > occurance of "community" in language and "being-in-world".....>evolution of human community....
I apologize for some technical language but its not easy to convey some ideas without using it....
Heidegger used the phrase "language is the house of being".....
c)
we come from a higher community and go to a higher community...
...meaning, the higher community that brought the Life Carriers to Urantia and the world they came from....
......we go to a higher community,   the mansion worlds....
...and we are now in a spiritual community.....
d)
Hegel's book Phenomenology of Spirit introduces "spirit" into philosophic discussion...
I cant say much about that as I am actively researching that and don't have adequately formed ideas yet, ...except...I think Spirit is something we have a more developed idea on than was available at the time of Hegel...so here I would make a connection of Spirit and Community...
I think the relation of all these ideas is beyond the scope of this posting, but I'm trying to say
a spiritual community gave us humans, we have a spiritual community we are in, and we will continue to live in a spiritual community....Spirit of Life...Spirit of Community...Planetary Supreme Urantia....evolution of community....
I'm not a philosopher by profession, although I read their stuff....I should stop here....
d)
I thought the dialectic originated from Hegel, but with further review, it seems to me now that it was active with Socrates....but a true professor of philosophy has informed me that the "dialogue" I believed in is actually a monologue where said philosophy professor is actually trying to manipulate the conversation  to his own point of view....
I really must stop here.....I fear a swarm of hornets might overtake me....the thread is about Caligastia and communism...I don't fear Caligastia or communism....I serve the Spirit of Community...
I must stop now I have said enough
Thankyou
RichardB







Ron Besser

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2018, 12:25:36 AM »
Richard, fyi, Hegel and Kant preceded Marx by a quarter of a century I think and Marx was not talking about Lenin and his revocation of the ideas of Kant for the ideas of Marx as modified by the heart of God on Urantia.  But Lenin took out of favor with Marx only to insist that Marx was too weak to seize the opportunity to be the head of a country as a Marxist dictator.  Lenin held Marx was correct philosophically but wrong in civil authority to enforce population integration as communes.

I am pretty rusty on the German philosophers finding them interesting but non applicable in the society of today that understands nothing any more except social anarchy.  In that the voters in this and other democracies do not have the slightest idea what they would really accept as dictators or proletarians.  In any case your basic question is to what extent Marxism and communism, and the Soviet Union become influenced by the civil manipulations of Caligastia, the earth devil?

Since I really do not know the answer to that question, let us ask Michael of Nebadon how he views the question:

MICHAEL OF NEBADON Speaks -
"I seldom quest for this kind of information except to assure you that Caligastia in 1918 was so unnerved by Lenin he let him have his way but really did not have anything to do with the Communist revolution, the killing of the children of the Tsar and his wife, and the confiscation of the crown jewels which have been restored to the palace in Leningrad now  St. Petersburg in 1991 again.  Caligastia viewed Communism as an idealistic impossibility, but Lenin outfoxed them all by seizing control of the government through the Duma and would not relent until the past traditions of monarchy were scourged from his country.  Caligastia saw Germany as the place to undo Urantia and the Bestowal Son Jesus and he concentrated his hatred of Michael there and that is how he got in control of Hitler's thinking.  Caligastia motioned Hitler into power and much to his horror lost control of the man Hitler who continued to bully and murder all in his way in those days.  You would make a more important contribution if you switched studies to the Third Reich to determine the persuasion Caligastia had over Urantia at that time.  Thank you.  Michael of Nebadon."
END
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 12:29:14 AM by Ron Besser »
Located in Historic York, Pennsylvania

7inOcean

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1122
    • View Profile
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2018, 01:15:36 AM »
Hi RichardB,
Since Michael of Nebadon mentions the Third Reich or the third regime or empire  as I googled what that is, I also found this article which is quite disturbing to know that drugs fuelled such menacing behaviours as this articles points out.

See link : https://newrepublic.com/article/141125/third-reich-addicted-drugs

I can see how Caligastia had quite an easy time with what developed and what worries me is that this drug or opioid menace is growing today and that the drug-related suicides are occurring frequently in our current climate. If you like to look at "community", then our society is in deep trouble if we have a drug war to deal with.

Sue/7inOcean

felibon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2018, 03:26:59 AM »
Aknowledge Miquel ..
Sue, Pervitin was a drug that german troops use as candys!
If you read about this subject, you’ll unserstand a lot of things german troops did during that period
of time.. and the worst was that Nazi heads were addicted to drugs in his majority..

Domtia.



7inOcean

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1122
    • View Profile
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2018, 06:47:42 AM »
To tell you the truth, I didn't know about the drug called Pervitin until I watched a documentary a short time ago probably on the Discovery channel about the Nazi Megastructures they built. These two researchers found this concrete bunker that posed as one strategically placed with all guns blazing at their opponents for some length of time and discovered something that even they were quite surprised. The few German soldiers who had to hunker down in it for some days without food and still defend it somehow had them scratching their heads wondering how did they do that?  It lead them to some archives and that's where they uncovered this drug called Pervitin (as it is well explained in the above article link I posted earlier) that appeared to have been quite prevalent for the soldiers to use back then, this revelation shocked me as it did for those researchers. I am in a generation that doesn't know much about this war and finding this out is really scary stuff to have that happening way before my time. Really, finding out our history in The Urantia Book is still very raw for me to take and it's going to take a while for me, and I dare say, all of us to absorb it all. It's a wonder how we managed as a specie to even make it this far. Wars have come and gone and for our ancestors to have somehow survived through it only just.  I can only imagine how busy the angels have been through all these years. And now we are faced with a possible nuclear madness. What we can learn from history, we may do better not to repeat so much that has not served us very well. My thoughts and prayers be with our Creative parents who have had to endure so much heartache as this Rebellion becomes clearer for us to understand.

Sue/7inOcean

Allie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
  • Believe in God but tie up your camel.
    • View Profile
Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2018, 11:11:51 AM »
I was born near the end of WW II.   As I grew up, I met an older cousin who had been in that war.   He was captured and spent time in a German POW camp.   Although he shared some things , most of his memories were kept inside and not shared, even with his family.   He eventually died as a result of his treatment in that camp, even though he was still a young man.

Reading of the drug use during the war does not surprise me.   It answers many of the questions as to the cause of such inhuman behavior.    Now I live in a state that is rampant in opioid drug use.   The statistics are alarming with so many families affected.   I pray to the Father to end this horror since it appears we cannot or will not do it ourselves.

Namaste,
Allie
"Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words."  - St. Francis of Assisi