Author Topic: How to Understand Evil  (Read 11983 times)

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newstarsaphire

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2016, 11:29:41 AM »
Thank you Shokre,

As always, wonderful food for thought! :D
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Ron Besser

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2016, 11:56:47 AM »
Lemuel, you are touching upon the solution to an intellectual conundrum.  Father did not create evil, but evil is approximately everything else the Father did not create either.  The question is not so much as to where evil comes from but what do we do about it, and our present reality as human beings says we have to resist or fight its illusion as final when we do not fight it enough.

Lemuel is on solid ground with what he points to in creation as real.  I also see Overmind's statement (he says: Ron, I had the thought last night that the questions you ask actually have a lot more to do with order versus chaos, rather than good versus evil. Those are states that deal with function and organization rather than free will choice.), as kicking the can down the road.  Evil can cause chaos in all of the gravity realms, but it cannot exist without misinterpreting the laws of the universe that in spite of law existing, there is no one to stop anyone from doing anything they can get away with.

Take the case of incorrigibility.   It is the worst adjective in the dictionary when it comes to law enforcement.  Evil lurks in the minds of so many on Urantia, that law enforcement is relegated to, at best, third place in effectiveness against evil.   Disorganized minds create the fulcrums over which disasters appear as though such minds exhibit logic or good will as statements of personal reality if they could but see that their present choice in evil is only a mild alternative to something else less evil or not evil.  The truth is that disorganized minds are neither animal or vegetable or hardly human, but in a state of flux that cannot be controlled by God, the law, or itself.  Evil minds are not real minds but they exist just long enough to create chaos in the material world of science and human history, and then leave us permanently as non ascension entities no longer capable of breeding further chaos in the universe.  But the idea of chaos is not what evil is for chaos is a temporary condition brought on by creating a path of choice in which nothing can survive including the evil ONE.

Overmind, as best I can tell, you work hard to see into evil but like almost everyone else, the subject is pedantic and off your view of the universe because you do not think evil is real enough to pick it up and look at its under belly.  Hideous is not the word for the egregores that exist just above the Urantia energy grid for morontial souls and the placement of deceased humans waiting transport to the mansion worlds.  What is God holding in storage if it is not real?  God recognizes that chaos is the effect of evil, and to discuss evil one should have a guided tour of the egregores yet alive in the upper levels of consciousness now contained in a band above the grid of storied virtues no longer available to humans on Urantia.

Lemuel, from your statement above, how do you constrain evil the Father does not achieve for others but only for those who grasp it and use it?  Michael of Nebadon's answer is you segregate it and let some view what has been captured above our energy grid in the cages of discontentment, for  the evil idea and beast wants to live freely and not be so constrained.  How do you explain the need for real cages in the land of egregores?

Mr. Dillon, I admire your approach: "I have to think more about this."  For the most part, most seem to approach evil as the lack of morality, more or less.  What most of you do is fail to see that evil lurks everywhere in spite of morality, and so, what is the true nature of evil that it can squirt itself above the rainbow of goodness and dull the miracle of color into the greys of horror over everyone rainbow it touches?   It must somehow become evident to all of our thinking that evil has attributes you do not know about, and that is the whole point of my coming in and asking those ridiculously hard questions above.  Personal realities deal with personal consequences and we all know when we have done wrong-- for the most part.  The trouble is that the consequences of our or other's evil doing ramp on until a whole set of procedures meant to stop evil are ineffective, for evil finds ways to permeate even serious do-gooder's in spite of their innocence.

IF you do not know more about the application of evil, everyone of us and you Overmind, will fall victim with your guard down about what attributes you have accepted evil's intentions.  Mind sets which are clearly evident here in this discussion about evil get in the way of truly organizing the mind to overcome the application of evil every day.  Your discussion paper Overmind, about evil, clearly states that it has no residential power in a well Adjustered mind, but you do not state--  or can you know or see--  what the Adjuster must do to prevent evil from lurking even in your mind Overmind, due to the culpability of soul to address the future rather than the present situation you live in.

Let us look at an example to baffle you about evil:

EXAMPLE:
When we look out into the vast universe and watch the motion of the galaxies around the true purpose of our existence on Paradise, we sometimes see two huge wheels of stars colliding with each other.  Billions of humans can die in such chaos that ensues as one galaxy presses itself into and through another galaxy. 

This accident of nature presumes it is doing as it is ordained to do to settle gravity grudges of immense latitude, but look at the consequences of nature doing what it does and see that billions or trillions or uncountable human lives who live on evolutionary planets in those galaxies have their lives cut short by an agency of God itself.  Evil has been done through an act of incomprehensible tragedy, and some on Urantia would say that act of God cannot be held accountable before the justice of the Paradise Trinity.  Even though you and I Overmind count these happenings as not good, neither of us calls this tragedy evil, but we should. 

At heart, this tragedy of colliding galactic life wiping out billions if not trillions of people is from an agent of God without personality reality in its working.  There are other kinds of reality of which the Unqualified Absolute is just one of several we do not really think about when we view tragedy and evil on Urantia.  A paper on evil to be fully stated should take on the reality of God that is not good or bad but consequential.  The results of the Unqualified Absolute being the commander of gravity resolution in time-space does these things to billions and trillions of humans in the universe every day!  The Supreme Being views every life cut off before its time as both tragic and ludicrous to deliver it to the next stage of that soul's evolution and must abide in the Father, that not all life in the universe is worth resurrecting if too immature to deliver the experiential network to their version of our mansion worlds.  Therefore, even the Supreme must rely on the mercy of the Eternal Son, to remove the stain of no resurrection for these souls accidentally destroyed by the actions of the nature of the Unqualified Absolute in his quest to build more universe concerns beyond our ability to understand.

The question any philosopher comes to grip with in a discussion of evil, whatever else you might label it, is there justice for this act of irresolution of the Unqualified Absolute?

Think about it.  Moral issues abound on Urantia.  But this is an example where morality and its lack thereof does not enter the picture before the Ancients of Days.  Then if not this question to settle in the courts of justice overseen by the Ancients of Days, where does JUSTICE go to to prevent this evil happening again?

The Unqualified Absolute is stainless of sin.  The Father resides at the heart of the Justice System in the Paradise Trinity, yet the Father is personal, and the nature of this tragedy is non personal.  It remains, this accident, evil (not sinful), and it has to be objectively understood on personal levels before it can be resolved by the Trinity to extricate the wholesome life of an Unqualified Absolute which has nothing to do with justice in its existence!

The Paradise Trinity has no recourse but to modify the worlds of time to resist becoming envisioned on trust to the point life is destroyed without resistance to death sure approach in these give circumstances.  Evil can reduce the death count by sacrificing itself for the good as the Unqualified Absolute can never do, but the Paradise Trinity controls the Unqualified Absolute to the extent that creation and matter and energy come under the control of some Deified reality which learns to control the after effects of a non-personal, and non-moral entity like the Unqualified Absolute genuinely is.

We now have come to the point we recognize the Almighty Supreme.  This part of God the Supreme is essentially the life saving force in time that we do not yet have to prevent the evil of untimely deaths withstanding that such deaths are tragic and not essentially caused by moral evil, but universe processes that are controlless without the Almighty Supreme. Yet, Overmind, you do not really address any of this in your paper on evil.  To provide students of this terrible and heartless subject of the nature of evil, it ought to become something more than a distant proposition you examine like a microbe under the microscope.  There are even other examples of evil due to irregular beats of the universe's heart we have not even touched upon except some are implied in my questions to you above to consider if you have any answer for them.

You dare not brush the subject off as me getting at something that is just a discussion about chaos.  Chaos, as I said before, is the result of evil in many cases.  Cause, First Cause, does not recognize evil as final but the distorting effect of rapid growth of a universe that still does not find its way without God the Supreme, the Creative Spirits, and the other Supreme Creators in time.  What we all have to do is understand that God the Supreme is more to us than most on Urantia, because it is the very act of the Supreme that allows me access to Its mind to provide these insights to you.

I am aware that I am receiving a direct input from the Havona presence of God the Supreme to provide these insights far beyond my own ability to think these things through by myself.  However, I must also acknowledge that Michael of Nebadon keeps the mind circuitry stable enough that I can think with the Supreme in these expressions of insight I object no more too that you would if you knew the difference about how the Supreme acts for each of you who transmit.

I conclude with this.   Evil is not sin or iniquity, but it is the first step toward sin and iniquity, and that evil is rampant on Urantia is not disclosed any more here than anywhere else in Nebadon.  What we do have on Urantia, is the loss of morality to oversee to the control of incorrigible behavior that has no way to control it without causing life cessation in those who do evil continuously and without understanding of their blasphemous natures. God the Supreme is emerging on Urantia in an unbelievable power far beyond the forecasts of the Deity Absolute and much to the surprise of Michael of Nebadon, and it behooves each of us, and all of us as a collective of the expression of God the Supreme, to learn more about the nature of evil and to truly understand what has to be dealt with to control it.

On the level of the Defied, God the Supreme does the work of millions of sure-footed Trinity Teacher Sons like Margul who is in control of the Urantia program to enter Urantia into the era of Light and Life on this planet to ensure its eternal surivala either as or with the proviso that we become an architectural world of light and Life some day.

On the Undeified level of reality, God the Almighty Supreme, works for the Power Directors and their off spring the various modes of their expressions on Urantia.  Urantia has now over seven hundred thousand different beings on the planet to override the work of the Paradise Trinity to seize control of the Urantia power grid and shake out those who stil inhabit it that should not be allowed to ascend further.  Yet the Eternal Son who works with the Almighty Supreme, seeks to extend the mercy necessary to save millions of deceased human lives so that they may live again without the sin evil brought to their development.

God speaks: "I am not the Supreme or am I the Almighty Supreme, but I am the Deity Absolute and I concur that Overmind stretches credulity by attempt to define evil so narrowly, but I aver that Overmind is one of the few on Urantia who can see the differences and shades of evil even more than anyone else except for Ron who lives in the Supreme these days in order to avoid is own untimely death before the Magistrates of God, the Ancients of Days.  I am the Deity Absolute and I aver that nothing is to be done to anyone yet to extend their lives, but when life extension is a reality, those of you chosen to act on behalf of God the Supreme, shall have life eternal.

This discussion evil may continue, but it should evolve more than it can if we insist on regarding evil as the result of moral vacuums in our population.  Evil exists to blanket the universe sometimes and the only way to determine its validity is to smash the foundation it depends on, and that is either the lack of morality in personal beings, or the vast consequences of a universe mechanism that cannot avoid destroying the very lives it depends on to perpetuate the infinite destiny such a universe was created for in the first place.

Amen
Located in Historic York, Pennsylvania

DaCandyMan

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2016, 12:26:22 AM »
if i understood your examples correctly, what about the movement of tectonic plate? the disasters are considered natural right? and millions could poentially die.  does this relate to your example?

overmind

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2016, 01:46:36 AM »
Quote
Lemuel is on solid ground with what he points to in creation as real.  I also see Overmind's statement (he says: Ron, I had the thought last night that the questions you ask actually have a lot more to do with order versus chaos, rather than good versus evil. Those are states that deal with function and organization rather than free will choice.), as kicking the can down the road.  Evil can cause chaos in all of the gravity realms, but it cannot exist without misinterpreting the laws of the universe that in spite of law existing, there is no one to stop anyone from doing anything they can get away with.
Chaos can refer to anything that does not have a plan behind it or does not have any set pattern. You are probably associating it with evil because chaos is used to erode order already present, which would naturally be an effect of rebellion against the Salvington government for instance. Yet chaos can simply describe unorganized movements of space, or things or actions that no longer create results as intended. Chaos can also be used to describe forces of both good and evil, because chaotic essentially means disorderly. However, chaos and evil become as one when law is identified with order, because then we get into the example of rebelling against God's law. I would also add that while evil likes to create chaos, chaos can likewise create evil as well. For instance, if chaos on this planet makes it harder to understand God's law, then it becomes harder to follow that law. In this case, chaos would help create ignorance, which negatively influences willed decisions.

Quote
A paper on evil to be fully stated should take on the reality of God that is not good or bad but consequential.

You are basically asking me to define destruction that exists with no will behind it. Part of me wants to define it as "heartless", but in truth it is more "will-less" than anything else. Since the Unqualified Absolute (UA) is just doing its job, this is more of a question of how to define a role that goes too far. When I think of this, the best word that comes to mind is overextension, because the work of the UA can extend way past the point it is useful, with the Trinity curbing its activities in response. It would be like a car without brakes that takes you past your destination and makes you crash. The car isn't evil, nor is its activity, really. The problem is that the car cannot satisfy all of the conditions of the driver, which becomes disastrous in the given environment or set of circumstances. Because the UA lacks will, it cannot choose to follow a new set of directions. Instead, it seems the Trinity has to either force it to act in ways different from the norm, stop its activity altogether, fix a problem after it has occurred, or create new conditions in space so that the overextending power of the UA cannot cause a certain problem.

If we look at a machine that does more harm than good, we usually blame the designer. However, blaming God for the activities of the UA doesn't really seem correct, especially if this Absolute is absolutely necessary (pun intended) for the universe to function. We can instead say that the qualities of the UA are only useful in moderation, becoming harmful in overextension. Another analogy would be that of a growing cell eventually becoming cancerous. The body tries to fight this kind of behavior, but it can get out of hand and threaten the entire organism. Taking one more look at such activity gives me the thought that a lot of established laws of universe behavior have very specific contexts, beyond which lie unnecessary and dangerous applications. It is easy to call this problem of overextension destructive, but hard to call it evil, because this could implicate the source of the UA as being the real problem. However, it is well established that working against such a destructive force is an example of good. Here, I think ignoring the overextension is where evil would actually exist, because this would be the willingness to allow a disaster. Therefore, God (or the Trinity) cannot leave the UA alone because God is good and is motivated by love, thus protecting His children from unnecessary harm.
I wanted to sail, so the universe built me a galleon.

Ron Besser

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2016, 03:09:42 AM »
Overmind
You write:
You are basically asking me to define destruction that exists with no will behind it. Part of me wants to define it as "heartless", but in truth it is more "will-less" than anything else. Since the Unqualified Absolute (UA) is just doing its job, this is more of a question of how to define a role that goes too far.

Ron - I am coming from a weak position because I am asking you to look at evil as an incumbent force in the universe that has consequential effects regardless of its personal uses through will.  You are clinging to a circumspect idea of evil that is not sufficient to explain it.

Let me refute your statement first I quoted above.  Accidental destruction is a tertiary cause.  Secondary cause would have terminated the collision of the galaxies.  Tertiary cause is allowed to let the galaxies collide.  All cause is willed!

There is will behind it for when the Father wills the Unqualified Absolute to operate as the primary cause of material consequence, there an then you have the Father through the Paradise Trinity (which controls the Unqualified Absolute) to allow natural consequences (i.e. tertiary cause) to reach their destiny status.

I do not think you have fully through through what you are dealing with on this subject because it appears you do not follow the Urantia Book well enough to know that any cause has a will, and any will that can override secondary cause, is a principle Deity, whether of the Paradise Trinity or singularly or through some purposive unity we may not be aware of.

Look again at what you have written and then tell me how it fits all cases of evil?  You have restricted your theory or explanations mostly to the moral effects of evil and not defined evil itself as an insulated catastrophe.  By that I mean, you allow evil as mistaken will, but you do not understand that evil does not have to use mistaken will but it also appears within  premeditated will and that such premeditated wills are the Deities themselves who must circumnavigate the universe to compound their choices of lesser and better choices which evil lies between them to get to either one of them.  Harmful examples exist outside of the Unqualified Absolute's priority to stabilize matter in order to keep building.  In this the Unqualified Absolute has an ally, the Almighty Supreme.  Your first sentence as quoted above is wrong because there is no such thing as will-less universe-wide destruction.

Overmind, what you explain to us is the following: There is just the moral universe of laws.  Break those laws through will power creates evil.  But what you also do which I do not care for is tell us that the universe Deities break no rules and therefore are not possessing the means to create latent evil.  But there are universe laws also in the undeified expanse of the Unqualified Absolute.  In essence you dispute that evil cannot go beyond the Deified universe and that simply is not true.  Deity is watching me with one eye cocked because I am treading a narrow intellectual edge to explain something to you, and I am trying very hard not to accidentally invade areas where no angel will tread, ever.  The truth is that evil perpetuates evil unless the Deities prevent it from perpetuating.  The galactic collisions of space and the destruction of inhabited planets seldom come to death, but they do happen and that is in an environment of the consequence of undeified actions.

When you teach on such a lofty subject such as evil, you are face to face with the imponderable lust of evil beings who want to see it run its course regardless of what Deity attempts to do to control it or stop it.  I do not disagree with the dictionary definition of evil, but I contend that when you teach it you go beyond the definitions in the dictionary, and that you are asked to look deeper than most folks will ever do.  I have laid out five principles I believe would give your paper on evil a fair chance to wowing critics of university papers on evil.

They are and now I give my partial answers that should be developed in such a Paper.
1) Is morality the only reason evil exists? [Ron: No! It exists in at least three different categories which are moral, material, and spiritual - then explain the category and why for each evil can exist besides the moral]

2) Is there an additional force alive in the universe that tests evil as present and non-associable of personality? [Yes. And it is recognized as the life of an immature thinker and doer who misunderstands the life of God is love and not apathy - the source of most ignorance while growth of the individual is conditioned on losing the apathetic stricture, ;I shall not kill, but don' tempt me!']

3) Is evil difficult to comprehend? [Yes, and why?]

4) Does evil relate to good in any way? [No, but people like me like to think it does in mistaken charity!]

5) Where does evil go when it is defeated? [Back into hiding in places the universe does not even know about.  The egregores are banded into Creator Son's attics, but they do not kill them or eviscerate them.  Why?]

Dear DaCandyMan - I have not forgotten your question.  It is not a pretty answer so bear with me.
You asked:
if i understood your examples correctly, what about the movement of tectonic plate? the disasters are considered natural right? and millions could poentially die.  does this relate to your example?


Ron:  In my view of the world of God and the world of man, I see polarities that go to rip the face of God off his benign appearance of God and into those deep eyes of Deity which sees everything and knows how to fix it!  Our religions do not approximate any kindness of the Father in the Old Testament, and show only the kindness or cruelty of love in the New Testament.  Which is right?  The Jews say the Old Testament approximates a version of the highest God possible on earth; the Baptists of Christianity are loathe to report any such unkindness and stick to the New Testatment as the best example of God to be found anywhere from here to infinity.

But the Urantia Book teaches this:  God is love and He is our Father and the Brotherhood of man is resplendent when found in the arms of a loving Father for all of us.

The Urantia Book also teaches the difference between the personal God of love as juxtaposed to the imperturbable entity that makes the feathers fly off bad chickens when he catches them.  Now your question goes directly to how we should avoid anthropomorphizing how God behaves, because I used a chicken being shaken out of its skin while God does no such thing literally, He merely says you are wrong so many times you are creating havoc in MY universe and it will stop, and the chicken stops.  How then does this apply to your question.  It kinda goes this way:

Urantia is now declared in spiritual default.  In layman's terms we are bankrupt!  There is no longer any value to our spiritual giving either to God or to each other.  We are a planet of little regard for human life or human values.  Father looks at the place and wonders how he can prevent Urantia from contaminating its sister planets in Satania?  He then wonders how much should be saved if he has to place the planet in the contagion category which He has.  Then he says to Himself, how do I make restitution on Urantia without killing children of my own?  The Father gets council from his equals and his associates on Paradise and they tell him, Father, the place is bankrupt.  If you wanted to extend mercy it still would not save the great majority of the population, so you may as well use the ice of Deity to carve out the rotten spots because if left in they will contaminate the mansion worlds and even the Most Highs sanctuary.

The Father looks at Urantia and it is also physically ready to blow up and that is because in earlier epochs the mercy of God was extended to Urantia to let it evolve in spite of it being too hot to handle.  Finally this era comes along and the quarantine of Urantia spiritually is of record now, the default on Urantia is on record now, and the basalt underneatt our feet wishes to blow the rock off the surface and we all perish immediately.  The Father has decided to let tertiary cause find its destiny on Urantia.  But when the Father does this, he knows from his council on Paradise he has potentially killed off perfectly good children to let the cause take effect.  Your question is now available to talk about.  Is the effect of cleansing Urantia also evil in some prospects?

Overmind says no.  There is no evil in an act of God or in his terms will-less disasters are not culpable.

Ron says, yes.  The imperturbable law of creation is 'thou shall not kill,' but we have two causes in opposition to each other in this case on Urantia.  The people are bankrupt spiritually; they cannot contribute anything to the spiritual universe and in fact most fight it and contaminate what good does come from Urantia.  And second, nature and the tectonic plates are ready to boil over.  The Father asks the Son: To what extent do I extend more mercy to Urantia to prevent all these deaths?  The Son presumably answers, "Father you have no choice but to extend mercy even to the sinner."  The Father says, "son if we do extend mercy how will that help me reimburse life on Urantia again so the planet is usable in my ascension scheme and serve as an example of reconditioning?"  The Eternal Son is life and love and mercy and hates the situation and the question is then referred to the infinity of the Trinity which can calculate any good from any action taken by any of the Paradise Deities either alone or as the Trinity.  The answer comes back that Urantia cannot be saved, and that Justice must prevail above all for the sanctity of the universe.  What does the Father decide to do?

I am quoting Michael now so I am on safer ground than I was up to this point.  Michael says: "The Paradise Trinity does not act in contradiction to saving life ever.  But the life on Urantia is so contaminated by the Lucifer manifesto, we dare not let that manifesto live on the mansion worlds or even attempt to go to Paradise because it temperamentally and corroboratorively could destroy the Manifesto of the Paradise Son, that nothing bars anyone from coming to Paradise once they have the credentials to go there.  Therefore Justice must prevail to remove the part the whole would be destroyed by if it were let loose.  Is this evil?  Life is sacrosanct but it must be life that allows others to grown and become themselves, and those on Urantia take a dim view of letting others win first in any contest they participate in,  Ron has argued that evil happens when secondary cause is rescinded and the tertiary causes let loose by natural tendencies takes place to remove quantities of life, as evil.  I on the other hand agree with Overmind, in that life is moral only because it is a choice of will, and not a rescission of will to stop anything from happening.  Yet Ron points out, and you question him, that stopping the accidental exposure of a true son of God by letting him or her fail to live their material life out because of others wrong point, is potentially evil to God and probably very evil to the person who innocently lost their own life because of the actions of Justice.

"Ron's point is well made by the Eternal Son, for He declares that Urantia is bankrupt morally and efficiently done in no other area of life that is valued by the Son.  I, Michael, agree with Ron on the fine points, but I declare him wrong on the master question as to whether the evil done to one to save the whole is entirely wrong even by the standards of the evil ones.

Overmind contends that universe destruction is will-less, but he is wrong to say that, because as Ron points out there is no action in the universe that is not First Cause to begin with, and he is right in saying that all Cause is willed.  It is not a draw though, as we understand why Ron finds the heartless views of Deity to be ice, and the arms of God to the  warmth of love; however, each of you need a lesson in humility when discussing evil for the Father does not know what it is.  What does this tell you?"

Ron - I say this to the wise and perfectly found Michael, that the Father indeed knows not evil and neither do His coordinates, but there is potential evil in every outcome of every cause that cannot be avoided.  And what may Michael have to say to that?

Michael  (Ron here - nothing but a very dead silence).  I do not think this question has been ever fully answered here or maybe elsewhere. I am also instructed to wrap this thing up and go to bed.  I can do that.  It's just we really never can quite finish until the Supreme resolves it in time as well. DaCandyMan, you have the brains and insight to worry the question, and right now it is almost up to each individual to determine the score of good or evil that has to be done to change this bankrupt planet into a near Paradise of learning and doing through the Adam and Eve schools, the Melchizedek schools and the Lucifer Rebellion studies in the University Michael wishes to establish on Urantia.  And finally, regardless of how well we understand the heart of Father and God, may His will be done in all of these matters before us.
Ron

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Kurt

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2016, 05:41:39 AM »
These are the issues we will all study further on the mansion worlds or in the Adamic schools to be established here and now. These issues will also be studied by spiritual beings as Urantia at one time was to become an architectural world devoted to the impacts and history of the Lucifer rebellion. My thoughts are that the rebellion was deliberately started and allowed to run its course as a lesson for the universe. This is the Divine personages instructing the celestial and mortal personages about good and evil and how to deal with it. A rather large teaching moment. There is an endless amount to learn in the eternal future.
Domtia
Kurt

DaCandyMan

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2016, 08:41:15 AM »
I find this topic to be extremely interesting, it relates to a theory i have in mind about the timing of the second coming.  What if the natural disasters is a way to wake up mankind? that we must feel true despair to be united in consciousness and crave for a divine intervention? what if there was never going to be an announcement? that this is truly a test of faith?  I think about it this way.  If announcement were to happen and majority of the population believed and if they also believed in disaster warnings and desire to be rescued, then the question is how is the population going to be reduced? with the coming of jesus and serara much will change for the benefit of all and i can hardly think more people will die after they came(after the initial chaos).  If the opposite happens that majority of the people rejected Jesus since about 4 billion people are unable to love god anymore, do they really care about Jesus? how can hearts be won? so what i believed is that when population is reduced naturally that the whole world is in a disaster then people truly will feel hopeless then the second coming will come with success.  Another question arises from the so called natural disasters.  is it really natural? or is it willed by god? since Ron said previously that every action is willed then how can it be called natural? then again evil does not exist in god so god therefore cannot will such a destructive act.  If i understood the unqualified absolute correctly this is where he comes into play,  since god cannot will to destroy, can unqualified absolute do that for god? since Ron said that There is will behind it for when the Father wills the Unqualified Absolute to operate as the primary cause of material consequence.  Then can the natural disasters be viewed as controlled, uncontrolled? can this way be the perfect way to solve such problems? universe is all about balance,  there is a god that creates then there's a god that destroys.  What i'm trying to say is that the so called cleansing is a willed action although called natural or accidents but it's merely a term to describe a willed proposition into an unwilled action(no idea how to explain this, maybe i'm confusing my self).  If this is a willed action then the final question is, is it evil? the sacrifice of a few for the greater good.  Since the result and intention is good, I'm more inclined to agree with michael that it is not evil.

Ron here - You are doing well. It would be helpful to understand that God is the Uncaused Cause.  No one willed Him into being and that alone contradicts our lives of beginnings and endings, but we need to accept that Infinity is uncaused too.  It makes our thinking so upside down we cannot, as a good material being, call such an idea rational, or is it irrational; it just is.  Look at cause (because without understanding how cause operates you do not know how evil or sin or iniquity can take root).  Let me go through the pecking order of causes:

1) The Father is self caused or uncaused cause depending on what you are talking about.  There are no antecedents to the Father unless you want to drag in the infinitude which I do not think is relevant here.

2) First Cause is what the Father says or does.  There are no antecedents to First Cause.

3) Secondary Cause is a Deity will mostly below the will levels of the Paradise Deities.  Michael of Nebadon can be Second Cause as he orders Nebadon to run as thought he were the Paradise Father, except Michael of Nebadon is sub-absolute and not an infinite universal like the Father is.

4) Tertiary Cause is a natural consequence of all other and preceding First and Secondary Causes.  Tertiary cause is mostly the mathematical results of First Cause and Secondary Causes being set into motion.  Linear gravity is a tertiary cause.  The tidal breakup of a moon into a planet is tertiary cause, and so is the fleeing of a woman from a belligerent man a tertiary cause.  Secondary Cause intervenes between Primary or First Causes and tertiary cause to become a bumper between the two extremes of First and Tertiary Cause.



The Unqualified Absolute is the entity that makes Ultimatons.  It is also the entity that prepares Ultimatons to become sub particles and secondary cause intervenes and converts sub particles into atoms and tertiary cause appears to form planets and suns from them.  It is so complicated to determine what cause is at work in our universe that the Father lumps all of these causes under one appellation: that word and cause is called Overcontrol

You have concluded yourself that Overcontrol for the benefit of the good is not evil regardless of personal consequences to the living universe.  I agree with you, but it only takes the tiniest turning of the hair of intention to introduce evil into this if God were not perfect and knew where the line was that kept such actions from being evil.  I congratulate you for understanding just enough of what God does to understand that he is not accountable for what does not happen, and certainly not for all that does happen.  -Ron
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 10:02:54 AM by Ron Besser »

LarryG

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2016, 09:09:32 AM »
Ron, you have certainly  simplified and coordinated this information for us in ways we can more readily understand these very complicated  issues.... I look forward with great anticipation to   the  release of  New Urantia Books and to the Schools of both Adam and  Eve as they are soon to  appear for us and all other ways and means from the Melchizedeks  for  our further and deeper education for our planet...... LarryG
"What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day so Let us be about the Father's Business"

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2016, 08:14:22 PM »
I have a simple question here...

When a person discovers that something they did not have the intended positive results, there is an old saying that states...

"It seemed to be the right thing to do at the time..."

So, was that thing:

1. A Poor Choice...
2. An Evil Choice...
3. A Sinful Choice...

Appreciation a simple answer,

  Doug The Puzzled...
"Live Hand-in-Hand, and Together We Will Stand, On The Threshold Of A Dream"

waforbes100

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2016, 08:20:19 PM »
I have a simple question here...

When a person discovers that something they did not have the intended positive results, there is an old saying that states...

"It seemed to be the right thing to do at the time..."

So, was that thing:

1. A Poor Choice...
2. An Evil Choice...
3. A Sinful Choice...

Appreciation a simple answer,

  Doug The Puzzled...

Brother Doug! I love your question to pieces!  ;D

Here's my [hopefully] simple answer:
The heart's intent determines whether it be 2 and 3; whereas the consequences determine whether it be #1. It could be all three (or none) depending on intent and outcome! Yes?  ;D

All Love,
Walt
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 09:06:10 PM by waforbes100 »

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2016, 08:38:53 PM »
Brother Walt...

Thanks for your answer in less that 50 words... I knew it was possible... 8)

Keepin' The Faith,

  Doug....
"Live Hand-in-Hand, and Together We Will Stand, On The Threshold Of A Dream"

overmind

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2016, 09:59:06 PM »

Quote
When a person discovers that something they did not have the intended positive results, there is an old saying that states...

"It seemed to be the right thing to do at the time..."

So, was that thing:

1. A Poor Choice...
2. An Evil Choice...
3. A Sinful Choice...
In most cases, number one. Sometimes number two (depending on the subject matter). Never number three because you would have to want negative results instead.
I wanted to sail, so the universe built me a galleon.

Ron Besser

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2016, 10:03:53 PM »
Doug,

You wrote:


Quote
When a person discovers that something they did not have the intended positive results, there is an old saying that states...

"It seemed to be the right thing to do at the time..."

So, was that thing:

1. A Poor Choice...
2. An Evil Choice...
3. A Sinful Choice...

There is one more aspect of reality regarding finite actions such as you mention above which we did not discuss.

All of our actions have some sort of consequence now and even later on.  Recall I said that all actions have their root in will power, but some actions have no meaning, and the Unqualified Absolute does not recognized meaningless actions and ignores the consequences either as finite comprehension or unqualified infinite consequences.

In simple English, if you did something one time and it just died out for lack of interest, it has no good or evil consequences because the Deities have more important things to do then chase what happens with will-less actions that just plain run out of energy.  What you are really seeking an answer for is, if what I did yesterday was not the best I should have done, will karma get me for it someday?    If the actions are weak and without meaning, karma can't find you' if you hit and run somebody, karma might but sure the police will.

Ron
Located in Historic York, Pennsylvania

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2016, 11:38:32 PM »
Ron...

Something is getting lost in translation... if you hit and run you know that is just wrong... I'd call it Evil or even Sinful... no question there...

I asking more about something that you intend to go one way and would have no idea when you started that it would "go South" as the saying goes... someone got hurt (emotionally or physically) and you had no way of knowing that would happen...  you know, where "stuff happens" you did not expect...

Had a some of that in my life,

  Doug..
"Live Hand-in-Hand, and Together We Will Stand, On The Threshold Of A Dream"

Ron Besser

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Re: How to Understand Evil
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2016, 10:39:10 AM »
Doug,

You are asking something a little more specific than I took from our last Q & A.

It happens all the time for people like me who are so sadly done about how to control what was a simple gesture or decision to go or have something turn out one way, and instead it hits the wall at some point and people are hurt.  This situation where what we did had unintended consequences is not something the universe is too hard on us for.  Again I point out that even if somebody considers me or what I did evil, it is not necessarily true or is it charged against us in the Book of Life.

Let me explain the Book of Life.  The BoL is real and exists on the morontial capital Jerusem.  Anybody who can read the universe language can look at your name and determine how you are doing in your present terms on Urantia.  Your BoL, they tell me, is four pages long.  Most people have about half a page in their BoL when they died here on Urantia and go North, to use your kind of reference.  My BoL, because of all the hub bub I am into for years was stagnant-  no entries and no explanations, but come about 2005, when I decided to tear down this wall between the Urantria Foundation or readers who refused to practice what the Urantia Book taught and rallied to fight me and anyone else in the Teaching Mission--  suddenly my BoL pages started springing up like wild fire.  They tell me I am up to 12 pages and have something added like one liners almost every week it seems.

The Book Of Life is a record of your life on Urantia.  Once you leave Urantia, it is no longer attended to by our angels and others who watch after life on Urantia.  Michael of Nebadon does not allow living humans on Urantia to look at it, but he does say you have no charges of sin or iniquity against you.  He also says he sees no disfavor for whatever it is your personally remember inside the question you asked me today.  I also see I have no charges against me but I skirt trouble by asking for repeated shots at people who have been destructive to the cause and work hard to avoid having those charges against me not to get entered.  This means that everybody who lives on Urantia has an open book until they die, and then the book is sealed and no more added. Once the human is on the mansion worlds, the book is quietly disposed of even though there are some very interesting additions to it if you can get to it before they erase it.

I cannot from my present perspective tell you about your BoL very well unless Deity comes to my rescue and peeks inside for us.  I am not a judge or anything that can look into the Book unless there is some angel or Spirit to do that for me, so chances are I cannot tell anyone what the outcome of a past action may be-- I simple can't and I hope no one asks me for info in their BoL as it is closed to me for the most part.  If you are a transmitter ask your Adjuster or guide about your BoL, but I cannot do it.

I hope this goes to some explanation where you stand and I have no problem answering general questions, but specific personal questions are beyond my pay grade for the most part.  It depends what they allow me to do.

Ron
Located in Historic York, Pennsylvania