Author Topic: Caligastia and Communism  (Read 5796 times)

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mauricio

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Caligastia and Communism
« on: August 15, 2016, 12:19:47 PM »
Caligastia has succeeded in distorting communism?, it would be on our planet viable communism recovery in altruistic levels for planetary lever?

Ron Besser

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2016, 07:08:17 PM »
Mauricio, do you know who you remind me of?  Mandrake the Magician, although Mandrake wore a tux, but you wear the aura of bare chested observation before the assembled readers here.  Do you want to tickle the idea of a perfect communism?  And to suggest that such a political observation of Karl Marx's philosophical communism never had a chance due to Caligastia's casting of a stone to it before it had a chance to be perfect?

May I ask what you are asking about as I am curious what triggered that suggestion from you?  The world is full of idealists who believe sharing equally in the resources of the world is the better way of doing things.  At root that is communism.  Notice I used a small "c" in communism because the small "c" refers to the general proposition that all should share equally in the worlds resources.  The capital "C" in Communism refers to the value of communism to certain States around the world who tried it.  Do you think any State around the world could institute a perfect communism?  How could they do that?  And what did Caligastia do to communism that ruined it?  I'd like to hear your view, so please help yourself to tell us.

I also wonder if some of you reading this might tell us how the Magisterial Mission might borrow something from Communism?  If so, how does that apply and what do you think the Missions might institute as a perfect communism?

Ron

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mauricio

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2016, 08:14:49 PM »
I fall itself, and once was thinking with the spirit of lies and illusion, because through my emotions I was just wanting to stop learning in urantia to transfer me to another planet from cosmic brotherhood, ie I was rejecting self learning process, which is bad, and but once I see about having to deal with the cosmic loneliness without patience and I entered the error by rapid perfection generating imperfection easiest way being not long to live life, make a comparison with other civilizations that are in the final stages of light and life as Iarga, it was like I fell off a cliff with his hands tied and I admtir that the comparison can not take the place of evolution proposed by different environments for the same purpose.

overmind

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2016, 08:41:54 PM »
I think the general idea of communism is fine if people themselves share resources and labor instead of the state forcing it on people. That would require self-governing, though, and people don't have the morals currently to allow such a system to function properly. As long as people are selfish, the economic system must make use of that selfishness to improve overall life. And as long as people are lazy, there must be economic incentives for work so that people will change their habits. Of course, this is ultimately a very complex topic that deals with the laws of the state, the structure of the economy, the functioning of the monetary system, and the social mores of society. I think slowly adjusting the capitalist/socialist markets in the right way (whatever that is) is much safer than introducing a wildly different methodology of managing human consumption and labor, and that will differ country by country.
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Daniel Alderfer

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2016, 09:22:25 PM »
Dear Virile and obviously very healthy Mauricio,

Thank you for broaching this subject that is really dear to my heart also, as the idea of a communistic society is so very attractive and desireable seeming.

But here I have to stop in my discussion to clarify a few points because of semantic challenges. What I think you are saying in the statement at 8:14 pm is this:

I was a little side tracked for a while with lies and delusion. Because of my dispair about the mess on Urantia I just wanted to stop and leave this planet, which is a bad attitude on my part, and go to  a planet that has a normal positive society like Iarga. I could see if I rejected the slow way that takes so much patience, and tried to rush things, that won't work eather, so I was almost at the point to end my life over a cliff, but I had to admit that the way of evolution where the progression is by subjecting a world or an invironment to the way of struggle and free choice was the only way that really works.

Dear mauricio, see if this is about what you were saying, please, Daniel
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 09:29:13 PM by Daniel alderfer »
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mauricio

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2016, 09:29:59 PM »
I'm not sure but I believe Caligastia used its best efforts to ruin communism, as Overmind cited need is a pasciente work, and a material stimulus at the beginning is the guarantee for a well sociedido process, but the advertising material consumption is a waste where you work only in self gratification does not last for eternity, we should start with the idea of eradicating inequality why she feeds inevja and greed for the least favored in terms of social conditions, then I remember that the lessons Jesus applied are important in love and service, specifically in selfless service, I see many bad caligastias in urantia to live a sussegada life, I think that was why I thought possibly the influence of Caligastia in communism

Ron Besser

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2016, 10:32:18 PM »
I look at Mauricio's question somewhat differently than some of you are approaching this.  It is not so much that it is communism that folds his interest as is it is the despondency Mauricio feels so badly about in his own mind and he is asking in a very simple way, is a commune system (not necessarily Marx/Lenin communism) better for civilization to sustain itself better?

This is why I responded to Mauricio, for he is asking a profound question inside the human heart.  Communism in the 19th and 20th century on Urantia was murderous and brutal, and that is not what Mauricio is pointing at.   He is asking did evil change the sharing for all in existing civilizations so sharing in a State sense never had a chance to express itself.  You can call it communism, but you can call it something else, something like a benign culture based on pure socialism and let it go at that.  Mauricio is hampered by translation of his thought to English, but I hear his heart calling to find something better than what he has to live with.  Can anyone discuss this means to social equality to help Mauricio understand what could be possible if we could engineer social equality without criminal theft of its ideals?

Ron


PS - As I pointed out to Mauricio in a private message, Caligastia had nothing to do with social organization of humans on Urantia until he found it a way to disgrace Jesus and kill Urantians.  He hated Urantia humans and pleaded with Michael to reassign him elsewhere as complaints were that Urantians are stupid and have little growth potential.  He could have cared less of the name of how they organized themselves then or in the future.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 10:34:43 PM by Ron Besser »
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overmind

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2016, 11:21:34 PM »
Most college students wonder if communism could have worked when they study economics, and the truth is we've never witnessed true communism in any country. Theoretically, it is unworkable because people want more compensation or resources for more difficult tasks, and there is very little empirical evidence that says it can work as a model for a country. On a smaller scale, however, we are actually dealing with the tragedy of the commons, and you cannot exactly extrapolate the solutions to that problem because you are dealing with only one or two community resources in a minor system. Yet that is where people will need to start, because that is how you will come to understand the culture of those who found solutions in their own neighborhood, village, or farm. It is also where you deal with the most basic example of free riding. While you can learn to understand the spirit of sharing responsibility within a community when you are only looking at one local resource that is being managed, you cannot usually compare that to a system of sharing all resources.
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Ron Besser

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2016, 12:08:20 AM »
Overmind,
How do you think the Magisterial Mission may use elements of Christianity and communism to destabilize the system of overpopulation we have in place now?

Is Communism primarily a social financial system or does it report to duty as something we already have working in our civilization today here and in Europe and most of the rest of the world?

The best example I know of Communism is Stalinism as I grew up hearing about it all the time on American news outlets.  I would be hard put to see anything good in that version of communism.  What is the social value of communism?  We all know the failure of communism as a financial means to live, at least with Stalinism, and North Korea and in the recent past, Indonesia and the PRC.

The Most Highs observed the Urantian experience with Communistic States.  I asked them if they were willing to comment on that experience.  Here it is:

Sentenact - "I am the Chief Most High.  I come at the request of Ron, to answer a difficult question from your perspective, but an easy one from our perspective.  First, Caligastia hated Urantians He could not get far enough away from Urantia aborigines. He also failed to understand that most Urantians were already communists when he walked the earth in the early twentieth century.  That was before the great Russian revolution of of 1918-19.  We see things differently today as we had hoped that throwing off the aristocracy the Russians would enter a new era of more democratic means.  But instead Lenin came upon the scene and threw that dream out the window with our hopes for a better Urantia.  By the time of 1991 and the end of the Russian USSR, our wishes were to bury a system that was recidivistic.  We evaluate the system of communism the chinese had under Mayo as worse than Russian but not as individually dangerous as the Russian system.  The North Korean system is not true Communism as it is more altruistic in its approach but deadly if disagreed with.

"Ron asks me if there is any use to communism for a State or a nation?  The answer is yes, and Mauricio was trying to explain why he asked the question and Ron discovered it in his heart.  Communism is without pity when it comes to helping an individualist, but it is happily done in seeing that all have a home, shelter, and food on the table regardless of their social standing.  The peasants of the Russian plain were pitilessly discarded by the Tsars, but held high by the Reds, and in this we regard the system saved millions of lives, but plundered millions more who disagreed with it.  In our estimation, Donald Trump could exist without any form of government to hold him because he is wealthy enough to transfer himself out of trouble all the time.  But most people including this Transmitter have no choice but to bend to the will of a minority in western civilization that is no better than the Communist masters of t he twentieth century as they exploit mercilessly what they want and let those who can not work it suffer unto death."

Michael of Nebadon - "I saw this thread erupt in my mind too when Mauricio stated his thread and question.  Ron caught that he was not particularly sure that Caligastia had anything to do with the concept of communism or had anything to do with its demise, but Caligastia did not like Urantians ever.  He found them weasels and demeaning of anything good for the common cause through unusual sex acts and bigamy and stealing loaves of bread out of grainery until no one had food for the winter.  These were officials who were in charge of it and the classic example of fox guarding the chicken house.  Lenin pursued relentlessly the others who helped led the revolution like Trotsky and a few others.  The choice to be a Communist has never been strong in America, and it has never been true in Asia until the Chinese adopted it so they could oust the federalists which they finally did to the Island of Quemoy.  Communism fails because there is no incentive for wealth but there is incentive for most poor people to adopt it and be quiet about individualism to be kept fed and warm.  I think Mauricio was looking for a better way to state the premise until Ron happened along to explain that Caligastia had nothing to do with communism on earth, but that man found it and tried it and found it utterly unworkable for the most part.  Russian Communism is the worst ever followed acutely by the North Korea example, but few other examples lived long enough to produce any real history.  Good day/"

END
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LarryG

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2016, 12:12:01 AM »
 In briefly looking at the purists forms of differing types of governing and people and societies they all share in similar qualities until such time as they are eventually perverted by man himself.  Although I am not a history buff in any sense of the word, all types of ideological theories, in their pure forms, have advantages and disadvantages, both good "workable" points and bad. We do not know precisely what exact plans will be put forth through the Missions since Urantia is so severely damaged through the many defaults that have occurred in our history.  Add to that the decimation of our planet from the extreme earth changes, there is likely to be many ways that man will and must adapt  as small communities, villages, and towns and will have to quickly take and adapt from the best of several of these ideologies just to survive.  The days of barter and trade may as well have a resurgence.
Having lived through the very strong and devastating hurricane in Hawaii in 1992, which I am thankful to have done for I learned so much about living under extreme stress without the usual comforts.  I also witnessed  and was part of how people can and do pull together when they are forced to and how there is a strong sense of community and just pulling together when survival is the issue.
When, for a short time, I was forced to pick wild mushrooms in the forests of Oregon at 1.50 a pound, come rain or shine, had to wash my clothes in a river and cook all meals on an open fire, I learned so much.  In many ways it was the worst 6 months of my life and in other ways it was the richest and most learning time of my life which I do not regret for a minute.
We will, I believe, in our journey to Light and Life,  just as we have been told about orders of beings in the Universe that are truly Self Governing, as mankind take from the best as we are lead and guided through our Universal Government, The Father's Government, and finally see mankind become what he has always intended to be and reach the heights that are created through love.   I have always been one of the idealists and have inwardly known that if man has no ideals, he could never reach those sublime heights.....LarryG  
"What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day so Let us be about the Father's Business"

esther

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2016, 12:44:49 AM »
I'll refer Mauricio and anyone interested in what to do to change this World; to TMArchives under New Era Communications   NEC by Daniel Raphael, Colorado.He T/R Monjoronson and Machiventa Melchizedek.  There is a book that Daniel Raphael wrote from information from Monjoronson , Global Sustainability and Planetary Management that explains the way the Magisterial Mission want to work with us to create a civilization that provides for the needs of everyone and to fullfil our potential.   You can find it at Starbridgetrust.org  that is a sister site of this one.  Daniel Raphael has a site :  socialsustainabilityproject.com. Hope you check that, it is a project for our future working with Machiventa and Monjoronson as co- creators of our own destiny.

ASSALE

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2016, 04:19:46 AM »
Very interesting and important topic of discussion. Thank you all.
Thank you for the Classroom of the Spirit.

Kurt

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2016, 06:45:22 AM »
Communism, socialism, capitalism- these terms will become meaningless when civilization collapses and people will have to create new communities in order to survive. Leaders will rise and others will follow. Hopefully the local leadership will be wise, fair and compassionate. Maslow's Hierarchy  of Needs will dictate what must be done for a community to survive.
Some form of local or village government will form to provide direction and disburse food and shelter to those in need. Because people have varying abilities and mental and physical disabilities, provision will always be necessary for those unable to shelter or feed themselves. As long as everyone understands that all are Gods children, then fairness or wealth hoarding should not be a problem. There will always be the poor both in material goods and in spirit and it is the duty of all to help them help themselves.
Teach them to fish.
Domtia
Kurt

mauricio

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2016, 07:21:26 PM »
Thank you Father Michael, Sentenact, Ron and all others. are enlightening answers always to the interior. My English is poor and the ideas or questions often fall apart, I need to work with more dedication and love the English language.  :)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 07:30:33 PM by mauricio »

Angela

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Re: Caligastia and Communism
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2016, 01:45:57 AM »
Communism takes capitalism's profit-based production and transforms it into production as a social service. Most people think that communism and democracy are incompatible. This is a false assumption made on the basis of the Communist Political Party regime of Official Communism or Stalin Communism. Communism should not be viewed as merely a political structure, it should be viewed as a form of social and economic distribution that supports collective decision-making. Democracy is needed in all aspects of social and economic life - from decisions about how and what we teach our children, to the work/leisure balance, to the distribution of goods and services. The UB suggests distribution of suffrage among specialised groups. Voting thus becomes a means for shaping economic and social decisions.
I think this is the "Communism" that we should be discussing.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 01:53:42 AM by Angela »
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